Mythic U
Join us to explore practices for discovering the stories that animate each of us. By understanding the meaningful stories that are your personal mythology you can choreograph your own unique way of attending to the needs of your soul. Hosted by Karen Foglesong and Erin Branham
Mythic U
Snakes and Serpents
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Join hosts Karen Foglesong and Erin Branham as we discuss the mythological significance of snakes, and their dual symbolism of life and death. We explore various cultural perspectives, including Chinese mythology where snakes represent power and transformation, and Hindu mythology where snakes are both protective and deceptive. The conversation also delves into the historical and symbolic use of snakes in medicine, such as the Caduceus and the rod of Asclepius. We highlight the snake's role in ancient myths, from the Minoan Snake Goddess to the Garden of Eden, and conclude by encouraging listeners to embrace the transformative power of the snake in their own lives.
SHOW NOTES
Wadjet: Cobra Goddess of Egypt
Ningishida: Snake God of Mesopotamia
Nuwa and Fuxi: Chinese Mythology
The Solstice Snake in the Moab Desert
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Hi everybody. Welcome back to Mythic U. Today we are talking about serpents and snakes. I know what a great topic, right? I'm Karen Fogelsong.
Erin Branham:and I'm Erin Branham. We thought, in honor of it being the year of the snake, we would delve into this very complex and almost universal mythological symbol. And you got a good quote for us, right, Karen?
Karen Foglesong:Right, I do."The power of life causes the snake to shed its skin. Just as the moon sheds its shadow, the serpent sheds its skin to be born again, as the moon its shadow to be born again. They are equivalent symbols. Sometimes the serpent is represented as a circle eating its own tail. That's an image of life. Life sheds one generation after another to be born again. The serpent represents immortal energy and consciousness engaged in the field of time, constantly throwing off death and being born again. There is something tremendously terrifying about life when you look at it that way. And so the serpent carries, in itself, the sense of both the fascination and the terror of life." This is from Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth.
Erin Branham:Always back to that root.
Karen Foglesong:I think it echoes one of our previous episodes about being full of gratitude and grief, trying to balance those two aspects. So here we're talking about a, I guess, a deeper push into that same direction, the sense of we are completely fascinated with life, and it scares the bejesus out of all of us.
Erin Branham:Definitely, which is why I think the serpent, the
Karen Foglesong:Just a little shifted. snake and the serpent is such a universal symbol as we've been
Erin Branham:It got confused. doing research for this episode, we've run into this concept
Karen Foglesong:Right? Yes.
Erin Branham:It got confused somewhere in the last 2000 years again and again, the snake as a creature between life and death. Yes, so that humans have really considered in real life and symbolically, for thousands of years. Even today, our culture recognizes this paradox in our relationship with snakes, the symbol for medicine and doctors remains staffs entwined by or so, with the rod of Asclepius, who was the ancient either one or two snakes. This is a mythological symbol, but Greek god of healing. The rod of Asclepius is a staff with a it's a little bit of a complex mythological symbol. The dual single snake entwined around it. Look for this as you go into snake symbol is actually the Caduceus, which is an attribute of Hermes, the Greek god of commerce and thieves. hospitals and doctors offices, you're going to see both, right? This is actually a matter of some controversy among medical professionals. Many disapprove of the Caduceus because it has these commercial associations. Like I said, Hermes is the Greek god of commerce, and they don't really care for that. However, it gets complicated in the Greek stories too.
Karen Foglesong:I was going to say, Okay, you're going to go on with the Greek stories, but I would say it might kind of be a reflection of the state of our medical system today, where commerce and thieves are intertwined in there. Okay, cut, break. Go ahead.
Erin Branham:That's great. No, that's very good. So there's a story in which the Caduceus was given to Hermes by Apollo, who was both the god of healing and disease, and he's the father of Asclepius, the Greek god of healing. He only inherited the good aspect of healing from his father, not the disease and plague part, because Apollo totally did that too, right? So Asclepius is sometimes considered a demigod, sometimes a god. In ancient temples of Asclepius, rat snakes, which were used in healing rituals, freely wandered around the temples. Some theories about how snakes became associated with healing so thoroughly in ancient Greece include that healers dealt closely with both death and rejuvenation. So the snake was the perfect symbol. To compare the Greek word pharmacon, from which our own pharmacy derives, meant drug, medicine and poison. This may have to do with the fact that a drug rejuvenates the one taking it by killing the thing inside, making the person sick. Yeah, so it heals and poisons at the same time, much like snakes.
Karen Foglesong:I would have to point out here too that rat snakes in the temple would keep rodents out of your food and so your environment would be healthier again, like (laughter)
Erin Branham:Right keep out. Keep out rodents who are carrying diseases. That's a very good point. So as you can see, Very important things she's associated with, very important even in our own culture, snakes as this dual symbol that things. represent both death and healing and power and protection goes way back. If you actually look around the world, you can see snakes showing up at the very earliest parts of the creation of culture in various places. For instance, 5000 years ago, Wadjet, the cobra goddess of Lower Egypt, is already well established. She is represented on the Pharaonic crown as a rearing Cobra. So if you ever see a picture of an of a pharaoh, you'll see they have that big tall hat, and on the front of it is a rearing Cobra. Yep. Wadjet, the word, means the green one. As a cobra, Wadjet was a deity to be feared, but she was also a powerful protector for both the king and women in childbirth. Definitely, and that issue of protecting by being powerful and and fearful. Yeah. 4000 years ago, Snake deity cults were already well established in ancient Sumeria, such as the god Ningishzida, Lord of the Good Tree, or Good Vine, a vegetation God also associated with the underworld. We see that a lot, snakes, because they live underground, are associated with the underworld and the deep powers there. Around 3000 years ago, Chinese mythology is taking form, including the tale of Fuxi and Nuwa, which I'm probably not pronouncing correctly, divine beings with snake bodies and human heads, who created humanity and invented music, hunting, fishing, domestication of animals, cooking and writing.
Karen Foglesong:All things that make humans, humans.
Erin Branham:Exactly, so very - like it, that was, I was really interested in Chinese mythology. We'll talk about it a little more detail. We're going to sort of go around the world with all these and just doing the oldest stuff right now. It was, it's amazing how fundamental snakes are in Chinese mythology. Right around 2500 years ago, you get the book of Genesis. We're all familiar with the snake in the book of Genesis. Yes, 2000 years ago, people living along South America's Orinico river carved symbols into rocks, human figures, geometric shapes, birds, centipedes and snakes, lots and lots of giant snakes. One such slithering subject measures more than 130 feet long, which likely makes it the largest rock art ever discovered. Wow, 2000 years ago, we have the first recorded worship of Quetzalcōātl, the great feathered serpent in Mesoamerica. In today's Ohio, sits Serpent Mound built about 1000 years ago, an effigy mound measuring over 1300 feet long, with a spiral at the end of the tail. In the Moab desert of the United States, around 1000 years ago, the solstice serpent was carved as a pictogram into rocks. At the summer solstice, a shaft of sunlight hits the serpent head. So that's just a little tour around the world to see how far back snakes go in the human imagination. Tell us about snakes. Karen, you've raised snakes.
Karen Foglesong:Well, I haven't bred them, but I have kept them. I did some time working in a pet store environment, and I was the reptile manager eventually, and pet stores are not known for their kindness. It's it's back to this commerce idea, right? So every person I knew that worked in the pet store had multiple aquariums at home because we were treating the sick snakes and small animals ourselves at home to try to I mean, if we got them better, they just were sold into the pet store again. But at least they weren't, you know, they didn't die from whatever sickness they were. And all of us were there because we loved animals. I've always been fascinated with reptiles myself. They're basically a muscle with eyes and teeth, you know, like they they just live. They don't have hands. They're not interacting with their environment the way the rest of us have the possibilities to do. They don't even have fins, most of them. So what I think is interesting is that usually, not always, but usually, you can see a correlation between the mythology and whether or not the people in an area found something beneficial to do with the snakes. Almost always, they're identified as a source of power, because they do carry the life and death within their often their mouths, right? So there are many very toxic snakes on the planet. I was always tickled. One of the ways that I was taught to identify venomous snake was the shape of their face and the orientation of their eye. And I'm like, if you're looking at those things, you are too close to a venomous snake already, you know. So my advice in the wild is just treat every snake as if it could be toxic, even if a snake is dead and you scratch your finger on a toxic membrane or a tooth, then you can get the venom inside your bloodstream. So it's best just to leave these guys alone, unless you know exactly what you're doing, like like a professional like Bill Blass, who made a career out of milking venomous snakes and creating anti venoms for us so that we can be in more hostile environments where there are more snakes. But as I pointed out, with the Chinese that you were talking about, or the Greek temples, where they have the rat snakes, they do eat rodents often. And there's also a small snake that lives in some Chinese houses that is considered good luck. It lives in the rafters, and it eats bugs. So they do have some, you know, beneficial aspects from living with rodents. In America, we're predominantly Christian, and so we tend to associate snakes with Satan, so they're bad, whether they're good or not. Like in the south, there's a king snake that eats venomous snakes, and some people will still kill the king snake because it's a snake, ah, but really it's keeping your environment clear of more dangerous snakes, you know, like a rattler or a water moccasin. But I think one of the things that really intrigues us about snakes is that they go into the ground. They have burrows in the ground. And so as soon as we start to decide that the underworld is beneath us, that there's some way to then, then there has to be some way to access it, some deeper way, some deeper dive. And so the reptile is perceived as being able to go between worlds, down into the underworld and back up into our world. Then, of course, the reptile sheds its skin. And it even sheds the skin that goes over there, the protective covering over their eyeballs. So if you find a snake skin, and it's a healthy snake, you can find the entirety of the snake, including, like, the eye skin. So it looks really trippy. I mean, you might even think it's some other animal. I don't know. I'm sure it adds to the mystique.
Erin Branham:At my family farm, which I used to visit as a child, there were, which was, you know, relatively rural, and you would just find snake skins hanging from the trees. Oh, whoa, yeah. As you walk around, you would just see a snake skin hanging there. And -
Karen Foglesong:It's creepy! But there -
Erin Branham:But there it's a sight. It's really a sight to see.
Karen Foglesong:There's a reason they're they're snagging on to some sharp protrudence in the bark to grab onto their skin so they can slide out of it, right? And look how smart they've got gravity and traction from going over a tree limb, right? Yep, they're highly adaptive, as you might know if you live in Florida, where we're having an issue with pythons now, because people are irresponsible with their pet ownership and just let things go into the world and they have adapted, and they're eating people's poodles now, I'm sorry. I think it's funny when human stupidity bites us back, like, like in the late 70s, we thought it was funny to teach pet snakes how to lift weights. So we would teach the snake to flatten itself underneath the aquarium lid, and then they would put layers of weights on it, and then we would award prizes for the strongest snake how much weight they lifted, and guess what problem this led to? Do you know how to keep a snake in a cage when you've taught it how to lift weights off of its cage?
Erin Branham:Really?
Karen Foglesong:I'm sorry(laughing)
Erin Branham:They were training the perfect escape snake.
Karen Foglesong:Right? That's great. There are cobras that can spit very long distances, so even being away from them or not may not save you. There are water snakes. They're on every continent except for Antarctica, and I think if you give them half a chance, they might go there too, but they're basically cold blooded animals. So it depends on taking in the sun to be a living source, which I'm I think is another aspect of adding to their mythos is that they get their energy directly from the sun. And even an untrained scientist can observe this happening. You know. You the snake is lethargic. The snake is not lethargic. You know, it's it's there. And some snakes are good parents. Some snakes lay their eggs and go away. They're they're in so many niches in our world that there's no way that humans at any level of civilization would not have come in contact with them, so that's part of why they're prevalent. I think there we go. Any other? Am I leaving anything out? Don't you know more now about snakes than you ever wanted to know? I love them!
Erin Branham:No, it's important, because the real life things, as you say, really impact the mythological ones. Yes, so much about that. So we're going to look a little bit further into the details of the mythology, kind of going around the world, starting with snakes in Chinese mythology. Since we are talking about this, due to the year of the snake, which is the Chinese zodiac. So let's talk about a little bit about what position the snake holds within the Chinese zodiac. If you are a person born in a year of the snake, it stands out for its paradoxical symbolism, which is exactly what we've been saying, right? The snake has long been regarded as a symbol of the great power of nature and the ability to control snakes represents the ability to control nature. This is a quote from Hua Xiaoying, an associate professor in Chinese culture at East China Normal University."Looking through Chinese mythology, you can find the two silk manuscript, which is the earliest silk manuscript excavated in China, which dates back to the first century BCE, it recounts that in the chaos before the formation of heaven and earth, there were two deities, FuXi - fu actually means Viper and Nuwa. They became husband and wife, giving birth to four sons who became the deities representing the four seasons. Many ancient texts and works of art portray FuXiand Nuwa as having human heads and snake bodies. One of the early books of mythology, Shan Hai Jing, literally Classics of the Mountains and Sea, which was written before the Qin dynasty. 221 BCE to 206 BCE recorded many gods and goddesses being involved with snakes. The four gods of the sea all wore snakes as ornaments on their ears and used snakes to journey. Yep, there's a deep connection between the snake and the dragon in Chinese mythology. And if you'll notice, as we talk about this, we have to keep in mind in anything discussing snakes and serpents that we're both talking about land animals and sea animals, or sea serpents, are very key in a lot of mythologies around the world. And the issue, especially in a mythological story of, is it a snake, or is it a serpent, and what exactly does that mean in terms of what animal you're referencing? It's very cloudy in a lot of places. And then in Chinese mythology, you have this extra layering of the snake and the dragon. Acclaimed scholar, Wen Yidou, postulated that the snake was originally an object of veneration for a large early tribe, which eventually absorbed other tribes that venerated other animals. So as a result, the large snake acquired features from other animals, such as the four legs of a beast, the head of a horse, the mane of a hyena, the antlers of a deer, the claws of a dog, and the scales and whiskers of a fish. Then it formed the Chinese dragon as we know it today. To this day, people still commonly used the term little dragon to refer to a snake, reflecting the deep rooted connection between the two in Chinese culture.
Karen Foglesong:Nice.
Erin Branham:So yeah, in various tales, the snake is a benefactor, a bringer of good fortune, and others, the snake is murderous or untrustworthy. So you see that paradoxical nature again, to snakes. More often than not, snake in the language would be used as a pejorative against political rivals. During the Tang Dynasty, empress Wu Zeitan, the only female emperor in Chinese history, used derogatory characters, many referring to snakes, to humiliate her rivals. However, one of the four most popular legends in China, Bai She Zhuan, the legend of the white snake, presents a more positive image of the serpent. So the legend recounts a touching love story involving Bai Xu Xin, excuse me, a beautiful magic snake and Zhu Xian, a kindly man that's very popular. We ran into the references to the legend of the white snake, over and over and over again as we were investigating this. Yes, there are still several snake festivals and commemorative events in China. On the seventh day of the seventh month in the Chinese lunar calendar, the people from Shang Hu town in Fujian Province parade through the town carrying live snakes. After the festival, the snake are returned to the wild. In the Chinese zodiac, the snake is associated with wisdom, charm, elegance and transformation. So people born in the Year of the Snake are believed to be intuitive, strategic and intelligent. So yay for you all you Year of the Snake people,
Karen Foglesong:yes, and always, there's that kind of duality in that there's this positive quality or aspect of the reptile, and then there's a it can turn around and bite you, kind of aspect of the serpent as well.
Erin Branham:Yep, definitely gonna take us into the next region.
Karen Foglesong:I love the Naga in India mythology, though some people don't acknowledge it, but there are these kind of creatures. They're like mermaids, but they have snake bottoms and human torso up, and they can be also they can be beneficial or not beneficial. In Hindu mythology, here we found snakes have been depicted as both powerful and feared creatures, as I'm saying, some good, some bad, they definitely have a significant impact on human life. Snakes have been depicted in various forms, such as gods, demigods and even demons. One of the most well known snake gods in Hinduism is Lord Shiva, who is often depicted with a snake coiled around his neck. There are also snake bracelets around either arm. Lord Vishnu, another important deity in Hinduism, is depicted with 1000 headed serpent called Shesha, which he reclines, Ananta Shesha. Ananta Shesha, the great serpent, or preserver of the universe. According to Hindu mythology, Ananta Shesha holds the entire universe on his hoods and his coils represent the cycles of time. Lord Vishnu is also said to have taken the form of a half man, half serpent creature known as the Nara Narayana in his quest to protect the world from evil. In Hindu iconography, snakes are often depicted as protective, powerful, omnipresent beings. They're considered symbols of power, protection and fertility in Hinduism. They are believed to be guardians of the Earth's treasures, and in some instances, they are regarded as protectors of the underworld. Many Hindus believe that worshiping snakes can protect them from harm and bring them good fortune. However, snakes also have a darker side in Hinduism, representing temptation, deception and chaos. And I would say in Hindu particularly like things can have multiple meanings depending on their associations and the perspective that they're being seen in. Naga Panchami, you think Naga Panchami is a popular Hindu festival celebrated in honor of the serpent deities. It falls on the fifth day of the bright half of the lunar month of shravana, usually in July or August. On this day, people worship and offer milk flowers and other offerings to snake idols or live snakes, seeking the blessings of the serpent deities and protection from snake bites. Very Important.
Erin Branham:Well, I think it's interesting. Even just in looking at these, you see, there's always a like, say, a reverence, a fear, like a healthy fear of an understanding of the venomous and deadly nature of snakes, but a real kind of fascination. It's just it, like I said, it's just so interesting. Like in the Chinese mythology, you can see the sort of the connection those gods having human heads and Snake bodies, I think is really interesting. Yes, that idea of sort of crossing over the boundary between the two kinds of beings and that idea of the snakes, you could see, you see snakes associated with primordial chaos a lot, yes, in these mythologies, right? This kind of idea that at first, before there was the world as it is, there was this kind of primordial chaos out of which the world emerged, or upon which a creator god acted. And a lot of times, snakes are sort of one of the first things that are created. Or there's, like you say, this kind of crossing of the of the boundaries between humans and snakes. So there's always a kind of acknowledgement of a sort of creative power. Yes, it seems like in the snakes.
Karen Foglesong:Hey, y'all, we're gonna take a little break.
Erin Branham:Thank you for joining us at Mythic U. We want to hear from you. Please visit our website at mythic u.buzzsprout.com that's m, y, t, h, i, c, u.buzzsprout.com, for more great information on choreographing your own spirituality. Leave us a comment and donate if you have the means and the interest. If you'd like to support our work more regularly, please visit our Patreon and become a member of Mythic U. Depending on the level at which you join, members receive early access to new episodes, bonus episodes and free Mythic U gifts.
Karen Foglesong:Welcome back.
Erin Branham:In Australia, in Australian Aboriginal beliefs, the Rainbow Serpent, or rainbow snake, is a common deity, often seen as the creator god. It's known by numerous different names in the different Australian Aboriginal languages. It's a common motif in the art and religion of many Aboriginal Australian peoples, and much like the archetypal Mother Goddess the Rainbow Serpent, creates land and diversity for the Aboriginal people, but when disturbed, can bring great chaos.
Karen Foglesong:Right?
Erin Branham:Again, that kind of primordial quality showing up there.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:As we move over on into Africa. Africa is an enormous continent -
Karen Foglesong:Enormous!
Erin Branham:And we have a tendency to talk, yes. We have a tendency to talk about it in this kind of monolithic way, which is silly, right? We are definitely going to be talking about when I say African. I'm talking about Sub Saharan African, because in general, above the Sahara is typically sort of associated with the West and the Mediterranean Sea, especially in ancient times. So right now, we're talking about Sub Saharan Africa. I'm gonna start with South African cultures. Snakes are revered in South African culture, so much so that the killing of a snake brings shame, because they are believed to be messengers sent by the ancestors. The kind of, from my understanding, the kind of core belief within Africa, if you go back in time, and that many people still hold, is a is animism and ancestor worship, and the idea that you're always communicating with your ancestors, looking for signs from the ancestors, and the snake is considered - so in South African cultures, the snake is considered to be messengers, yes, sent by the ancestors. The appearance of a snake at the time of a traditional ceremony is a sign that the ancestors are content. In Zulu tradition, eating raw snake liver acts as a protective charm. Snakes are also considered immortal, potentially because of their ability to shed their skin. So coming back to that, that is such a key symbol in the mythology of the snake around the world, I think that shedding of the skin and the sense of being able to rejuvenate, or say, live forever,
Karen Foglesong:There are some creatures on the planet that can grow back a limb, like an octopus can grow back a limb, but there's no other creature on the planet that sheds its old self and becomes a new self over and over and over again, right? So it's a unique place for the snake to live.
Erin Branham:Definitely. Moving up the west coast of Africa to Benin, which is now part of the country. The people of Benin, the Fon people believe that the Rainbow Serpent. I want to see if I say Aida-Wedo was a servant of Mawu-Lisa and existed before the earth was made. As Mawu-Lisa created the world, the serpent carried the goddess in its mouth as she shaped the earth with her creations. As they went across the land, the rainbow serpent's body left behind the canyons, rivers, valleys and mountains. The rainbow serpent had a twin personality, whose red half was male and whose blue half was female. Together, they held up the earth and the heavens. The female half was said to arc thunderbolts and rainbows across the sky with its body and lived among the clouds, trees, springs and rivers. Asked byMawu-Lisa to help support the weight of her creations on the earth, the rainbow serpent's male half coiled its body underneath the world to prevent its collapse as it rides from exertion under the world's weight, the serpent causes earthquakes in the land. When it runs out of the iron that states its hunger, it is said the serpent will devour its tail, finally causing the heavy earth to sink into the abyss. In some stories, I Aida-Wedo descends from the heavens with Adanhu and Yewa, the very first humans created by Mawu-Lisa
Karen Foglesong:So, wait, wait, wait, I just have to point out right there the like intelligence inherent in this ancient myth, that there is some element in the earth that when it runs out, we're in trouble. Like, you know, like with this is an old story. So do we know that we're mining iron from the earth at this point? Like, who knows this knowledge at this time? You know this? I love these little bits like this that are they're true. No matter what you say, this part is true. Like, you know
Erin Branham:Definitely. The West Africans were absolutely or, you know, the kind of American shifting of it either, incredible metalsmiths, and did really know a lot about iron. I you know that's that's real too. And there are many snake dancers know Shango, the God of the forge, is very important God in these West African mythologies. So definitely, another aspect of this Fon mythology is Da. Da is predominantly portrayed as a massive serpent, an image capturing both its majestic and terrifying aspects. This serpent's immense length often symbolizes its encompassing presence in all aspects of existence. Da's iridescent scales reflect the colors of the rainbow. So this is related back to that rainbow serpent we just talked about, representing its divine and omnipresent nature. This imagery of Da's signifies life's cyclical nature, an endless loop of birth, death and rebirth. So it real. It goes back to the quote that you said by Campbell. There's Yes, even in very, very ancient peoples, you see this acknowledgement of core aspect of human existence, which is what mythology always deals with, life, death, rebirth. Life, death, rebirth, the generations the snake shedding its skin to go on and on and on. What you can see why it just how every human all around the world must have looked at that and gone. I see that. I see that truth of existence being expressed in this animal. In contemporary time Da's influence remains palpable within and beyond the Fon community, notably through its continued practice of Vodun. This is probably where a lot of people are going to go. Oh yeah. Vodun is the actual name for voodoo religious tradition deeply rooted in Fon spirituality. Through rituals and artistic expressions, Vodun maintains a profound reverence for Da so probably everybody has seen some image of like a voodoo priestess with a snake, right, yes, acknowledging its pivotal role in the cosmic order and preserving connections to ancestral wisdom and traditions. Despite misconceptions in popular culture, Vodun persists as a testament to the enduring significance of Da serving as a vibrant conduit for spiritual expression and cultural identity. Very interesting. That is just skimming the surface of African mythology like we did South Africa and West Africa, and that's all we did, right? So I haven't even looked at the East African stuff, in New Orleans, For sure. And of course, throughout Africa, the major religion, the other major modern religions of the world have spread throughout great swaths of of African people are Islamic. Great swaths of African people are Christian, yeah. What is it like? Every all of those are still around here. We're talking about the traditional mythological beliefs of various people, yeah, originating the underlying ones, yep. Okay, this brings us around to snakes and Western mythology. We've scheduled that we may do two episodes on this because there's so much material, because I have a feeling we're going to sit here and talk Western for the rest of this episode.
Karen Foglesong:There's a lot because
Erin Branham:one one, we know it best. So that's obviously and then so we're able to get a little bit more finely tuned looking at this stuff. Yeah. So this is, we're trying to sort of go back in time about 3500 years ago. Yeah, there was the Minoan culture on Crete, which is one of the large islands in the Mediterranean. And this was very core material that the ancient Greek culture was built off of and built from. They was, that was, this was a really, really old culture that then greatly influenced the Mycenaean age and all the parts of the Greek culture that came after that. But we basically just have archeological evidence
Karen Foglesong:Right? with these folks and a little bit of of writing. And one of the things that we have is an image of a of a goddess from Crete, and you've probably seen at least that she has bare breasts. She's wearing a dress, but the breast part has been cut out the neckline, goes under her breasts. Yes.
Erin Branham:And she has her hands up, and she has kind of a coiled hairdo, and she has her hands up, and then at least one of the hands, you can still see a kind of curly Q object, which is typically interpreted as a snake. And so you'll hear her
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. call, called the snake goddess of ancient Crete. There's not clear if she's a goddess, if she's a priestess of a goddess.
Erin Branham:And then you wanted to talk Old Europe and Is that actually even a snake like we don't really know, but it has certainly been a big image that even if it isn't really that so many people for so many hundreds of years took it that way, that she's still a kind of interesting image of the idea of snakes, and how far back that stuff goes. Mesopotamian.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, so, there's a shifting, if you'd look at this matriarchal culture, previous to patriarchal culture, which I am a fan of, there's a shifting from the snake being seen as a benevolent benefactor as being dangerous or outright lying, a satanic those kind of things. And you can see it as early as in some of the early Sumerian myths with Tiamat and Marduk, who originally Tiamat is the Creatrix of the universe, but then she gets turned into this kind of super demon that Marduk, her son, no less, has to pursue, and he ultimately kills her, so that the earth is inherited by civilized humans like maleness, right? And you can see this again in as you move forward in time with Apollo taking over. What was the Python's name? It has Pythia,
Erin Branham:Just Python.
Karen Foglesong:Just Python that,
Erin Branham:I think that's where the our word, the
Karen Foglesong:word Python, Apollo's priest. We there's evidence that shows that there were priestesses that gave Oracle information from the Python to people in their world. And then, as the maleness came in, Apollo came in and wrestled with the Python and destroyed it. And then the truth, the light, came from Apollo's lips, not the snakes anymore.
Erin Branham:Yeah, definitely the this is all the story of the Oracle at Delphi. Yes, and I did. I just just looked it up. And yes, we get our word Python from the name of that monster, that snake monster that Apollo killed at the Oracle of Delphi, thus making it his Oracle, yes, from then on. So because, as you say, the the prophecy now proceeds from Apollo rather than from this ancient Primordial Being, Python.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, this feminine reptilian presence, yeah. And then as we continue forward in time the snake becomes more and more demonized, as you can see in the Garden of Eden now, it is simply a representative of Satan that is twisting the feminine aspect into betraying the masculine now, now, and we dig down on this. And so I think that all of these stories show evidence of how the serpent and the feminine were initially entwined in early mythologies, and that we've had to demonize them both to raise up the logic or the light of Apollo.
Erin Branham:Definitely. So one of the things I found in looking at this, which I had never really I've heard, I had heard of the chthonic powers, which is just a word I love, because it's spelled really weird, C, H, T, H, O, N, i, c, and that's actually comes from ancient Greece, and that there were the Olympian powers, which were up in the sky, and there were the Chthonic powers that were down in the earth. So it was actually-
Karen Foglesong:Nice.
Erin Branham:Those two. So, like, that's like Hades is a chthonic power. He lives under the earth, inside the earth, all that serpents and snakes and all of those kinds of things also have that kind of power, which I thought was really interesting. Okay, so we've done all that. We have to talk about just what you were discussing around Marduk and Tiamat, in reference to the story of the Garden of Eden. Yeah, probably every single person who's Western knows this. When we say snakes in mythology, you probably immediately thought of the snake in the garden temptings Eve with the fruit that God had told her not to do. This is a Judaic story. It is in the very first book of the first book of the first book of the Torah, which was then incorporated into the Christian Bible. However, what's really interesting to me is that in the story is interpreted in very different ways by the three different religions, because -
Karen Foglesong:the Abrahamic
Erin Branham:Islam then came along and also sort of absorbed it, because Islam is based back on Judaism, just like Christianity is based on Judaism in many ways. And so yes, these are all the Abrahamic story, all the Abrahamic religions that come out of that kind of core Judaic mythology. And so when you look at the story of the Garden of Eden Christians, and particularly Protestant Christians, which are most American Christians, and the people that Karen and I grew up around tend to equate the serpent in the garden with Satan. That is a very Protestant Christian version of that. That is not the way a lot of other Christian sects take. It's definitely not the way that Judaism takes that story at all.
Karen Foglesong:Right.
Erin Branham:In Judaism, the story of the garden is an etiological story. That is etiological means a story that explains the origins of things. So, right? It comes along and it says, people
Karen Foglesong:Right. go, Oh, why? Like, why is it so hard to have a baby, right? Like, why do you have to scream and bleed and nearly come to death, and frequently come to death to have a baby. Why? Why is the world set up like that? Yeah.
Erin Branham:Well, the story tells you why. Why do we have to till the fields to get our food? Well, the story tells you why, and that's all it is to them. It is a story that tells you why things are set up, how they are set up. It does not have a whole lot of moral weight. It does set up the kind of core relationship between Yahweh, the God of the Jews, and the Jewish people, right? That Jews sort of owe God obedience and need to be doing the things that God says, and if not, God is going to punish them. That is kind of a core from my understanding of Judaism, that is what you see going through when you get to the prophets. The prophets are like, Hey, I'm telling you, you're not following the law the way God said to follow the law, and bad shit is going to happen. And then bad shit would happen, right? And the Jewish people would go, Oh, we should have listened to the prophets, and we should have been obeyed God, because we didn't. And now we're slaves in Egypt, right? Like it just that's the kind of core aspect of it. As far as I know, for Islamic people, the story is essentially etiological as well. Why are things the way that they are? It's Christians who take it differently, and that has to do with Jesus. And that has to do with Jesus, right? They thought. His followers thought he was the Messiah.
Karen Foglesong:He died.
Erin Branham:He dies on the cross. Now, dying on the cross automatically eliminates him,
Karen Foglesong:Right?!
Erin Branham:From possibly being the Messiah, according to the Jewish tradition, right? If you're dead, you cannot be the Messiah, right? Because the Messiah is a living leader who leads the Jewish people out of oppression. So the minute Jesus died, he was out of contention for 99% of Jews. He's like, Nope, that wasn't the guy. The religious scholar Karen Armstrong, who's big influence on me in terms of my interest in all this, I read several of her books, has this theory that what happened when Jesus died on the cross, his followers basically could not absorb that they were wrong about him, that he was not the Messiah according to Jewish tradition. They were all Jewish men, right? They were all Jewish people, if you count the Marys and all that in there. And so what they did was sort of change the rules, and to say, well, there's got to be a way that him dying, instead of eliminating him from being the Messiah, proves that he's the Messiah. The death is the important part, the death and the resurrection, because then he reappears, right? He reappears. And so that, like that the death and the resurrection, there's some there has to be something about that that ties back deep into the mythology. And that is where we get the idea of original sin, that Jesus's death atones for the sin in the garden. And thus the what happened in the garden. There was a sin there. Like said, everybody took his like, oh, we messed up. We didn't follow God, and now things are the way they are, yeah. But for the Christians, it became a much more key, like a like a weight, like a scales, right? Got balanced at this moment that Jesus died, and that's part of the reason why the snake in the garden gets equated with Satan, right? Even though there's not really anything in the story itself. Like, if you go read Genesis, nothing about the devil. There's nothing about Satan. There's not it's just a snake. It's a snake that talks, because it's ancient times and mythological times, and bushes burn and snakes talk. Like that's what happens. It's just really interesting to me to see how this is kind of like what we're talking about, like, make your own mythology. Jesus followers were like, we're just gonna make our own like, we're just gonna work this out, right? Just go,
Karen Foglesong:it's what's been happening all throughout time. Yeah, and this particular story, when you set them up as the feminine and the snake colluding against all of humanity. It leaves you hating women. Like if it weren't for stupid women, the world would be better.
Erin Branham:I do think - I do think that part goes throughout all the Abrahamic religions. Can't just put this one up.
Karen Foglesong:Yes, it does. It does.
Erin Branham:Can't just put that one on the Christians.(laughter)
Karen Foglesong:But you I mean, if we're going to talk about story building, then we have to pay attention to the fact that the bones are important because they're pointing to specific ideals.
Erin Branham:This is true.
Karen Foglesong:Sorry, it is my soapbox, but -
Erin Branham:I know. That's right. You're listening to this. You got to listen to us rant on our own personal beliefs every once in a while.
Karen Foglesong:Right?
Erin Branham:And again. And I want to say this about when I say all of that about Christianity, and I'm not, truly not seeking to under we're never looking to undermine anybody's beliefs. We both, you know, like I said, grew up in the Bible Belt, so we have some lasting trauma. (laughter) It's not really Christianity's fault. It's the what is it? It's"Jesus, please save me from your followers." We're not blaming Christianity. We're mostly just blaming the particular rednecks who gave us a hard time when we were young, yeah, who frequently were misinterpreting their own religion, right? How about. Was this a part of what, why we do, what we do? Yeah, one of my big defenses in that was I would actually go and read the the religion. I go read the thing and be like, Oh, you're beating me over the head with something that this doesn't even say!
Karen Foglesong:Right?
Erin Branham:Like, that's not, that's actually not even in so when I got good at the Bible, was that was a lot of fun, because they come at you really what chapter and verse is that? Because I can tell you a chapter and verse, it says the opposite.
Karen Foglesong:That's great.
Erin Branham:Nothing upsets a surface level Christian than that.
Karen Foglesong:Than having their surface shifted? Yep, yeah.
Erin Branham:yeah. Well, just being gone like you. I know your religion better than you do, yeah, like that. It's is always an interesting moment.
Karen Foglesong:Which is, surprisingly, in the south, is not hard to do. People do not like to study their religion. They already know it by God.
Erin Branham:That's what I mean, yeah, that's why. I mean, we're not really bagging on Christians or Christianity, because when you get into it, I did later on in my life, I met people who were really dedicated Christians, and I was like, now these folks I can get with, yeah, like, they're not one. They're not coming at me saying I'm going to go to hell just because I don't believe exactly what they believe. Yeah, like, word for word and and they actually lived the way that Jesus said people should live.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:Like, that was that's a really different kind of Christian than the ones that we frequently see on in public office, and certainly all across the south, it's a big thing for people to try to bash you with being holier than thou, and then you find out that they're being holier than thou about something that's like, literally, not in the religion, right?
Karen Foglesong:Like my, my small town, there were so many churches, and if you didn't go like if you didn't go to the same church as somebody else when they saw you in public, you were going to hell. You're, I mean, there's not a lot of there's no wiggle room, just that other church was wrong and you're going to hell. And the biggest, main church in our town turned out the youth director was a pedophile, of course, and it's horrifying, but it's also like it's right at the core of the hypocrisy man who is the snake in the grass now?
Erin Branham:Very true.
Karen Foglesong:Bring it back around to our subject.
Erin Branham:I know it does, because it's an interesting thing, slippery, much like the snake, right? I'm slippery in that, but I like that because it gives me discovering that about the story, the story of Genesis, because I was raised in the Bible Belt, the Protestant Christians around me were giving me the snake was the devil snake. All snakes are evil, right? Got a lot of that. All snakes are evil. If you see a snake, kill it in the real world because of the serpent in the garden. Got a lot of women are innately sinful. Women's bodies are innately sinful because of the association with and there's many times that the snake is also associated, in that kind of warped version of Christian mythology, with sex. Yeah, there is a way in which it is the snake tempted Eve into seducing Adam. And so there's this real aspect of all of that being equated with sex and sex as sinful, which is an exceedingly damaging version of that mythology that I personally suffered from So, right? So, reclaiming the snake in that story coming around to understanding that the snake, in many ways the snake. There's also the idea that I ran across later of the fortunate fall, of the idea that humans would not be humans had they not sinned in the garden, right? If they had not, we would just be children under God, you know, if you had not eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what would you know? Would you know anything? No, to be eternally innocent might mean that you did never were sinful and you never disobeyed God, but you would be eternally innocent. Who wants that which wants to be? You know, be an egg forever. I don't get it
Karen Foglesong:right. There's no growing in that equation. Yeah. And
Erin Branham:so in that case, the agent, the the snake, becomes this agent of experience, and that is incredibly key. This the it becomes a transformative figure that invited humans into true knowledge and into the ability
Unknown:Right. Because of the lack of experience or growing to discern things, and into the ability even to to activate their free will. So that makes the snake this other kind of symbol in that story that was it was really a revelation to me, having grown up in that space, to go like, Oh, there's a way in which reading this story, it's about this happened and it felt bad, and you got expelled from paradise. But that was necessary. That is how we become who we become, how we get to striving to be more than what we are, which is a very key aspect of my own personal mythology, right? It's like constantly, like growing is and experiencing new things is a good thing. Getting out into the world, even if it's difficult out here, is better than, you know, staying in a safe, comfortable space forever and ever and ever, towards experience, right? Or you use the I the image of the egg. You can also use the image of the seed, where, if it stays in its comfy coating, then nothing ever happens. It's not becoming a plant, it's not kissing the sun. That's not drinking of the earth, you know, like this. There's a poetic way of seeing this.
Erin Branham:Definitely. And like I said, the snake as this transformational figure in that it was just, it was a great mind opener to see it that way, and to suddenly see snakes in this different way, to see them as and then I met Karen, who was like, Are you kidding me? Snakes are awesome. Snakes are like the Goddess. Snakes are fundamental, core, primal power, baby. And I was like, Yeah!
Karen Foglesong:well, I, I had loved snakes, and I, I'm not sure, but there might have been an interaction with my father really early on that was deep in my psyche that caused this. But I have always seen snakes as a positive thing. And when I was growing up in Mississippi, the fact that I liked snakes made me satanic. It didn't help anything that I had red hair. So those kind of, those things kind of pushed me into other areas of research, so I could claim the snake as pushing me out of the Garden of Eden also.
Erin Branham:Interesting - I like that!
Karen Foglesong:By the time I met you, I was claiming it. Yeah, there you go.
Erin Branham:I think that's a good place to end. So there you go. We'll leave you with this thought for today. People, go find your snake. Go find the thing that will fascinate and terrify you enough to urge you into new realms of experience.
Karen Foglesong:Right? Enjoy.
Erin Branham:Awesome. Thanks so much. We'll see you soon.
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