Mythic U
Join us to explore practices for discovering the stories that animate each of us. By understanding the meaningful stories that are your personal mythology you can choreograph your own unique way of attending to the needs of your soul. Hosted by Karen Foglesong and Erin Branham
Mythic U
Conspiracy Theories as Mythic Stories
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Welcome to a discussion about the nature of conspiracy theories, looking at their symbolic and mythic roots. What are conspiracy theories and why do people believe them? What do conspiracy theories have to do with personal mythology? The conversation delves into the motivations behind belief in conspiracy theories, and the history of conspiracy theories. The discussion also touches on the psychological impact of conspiracy theories and the importance of self-awareness and understanding one's personal stories.
SHOW NOTES
The Search for Roots: C.G. Jung and the Tradition of Gnosis by Albert Ribi
Speaking of Psychology, Why Do People Believe in Conspiracy Theories with Dr. Karen Douglas - podcast by American Psychological Association
David Icke and the Reptoids (sounds like a band name!)
The Great Fire of Rome: of fake news, conspiracy, and social disruption - essay on The Spirit of the Eye blog
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Hello and welcome to Mythic U. I'm Erin Branham
Karen Foglesong:And I'm Karen Foglesong, welcome back. I think today that you brought us a killer quote.
Erin Branham:I did. Thinking about this today, "A myth is not only a story, it is a statement made in symbols. The language of the unconscious is symbolic. A symbol speaks directly and immediately to the soul, and it is understood by the soul even when consciousness does not understand." which is by Alfred Ribi, who wrote that in The Search for Roots. And I just felt like that really got straight to the heart of what we talk about here at Mythic U - the way that stories and mythologies and symbols speak directly to the soul.
Karen Foglesong:Absolutely. I think it's particularly powerful today. We're talking about conspiracy theories, right? And I think this is particularly powerful in connection with that, because we have a tendency to let the conspiracy theories be the answer for us, and then we're not interpreting our own stories anymore. We've given over to somebody else's story, right?
Erin Branham:Absolutely. So conspiracy theories were, are of great concern in this day and age, although, as we did our research, we found, in many days and ages, right, conspiracy theories been of concern.
Karen Foglesong:Absolutely, I think they've been. I mean, we didn't, we only went back a certain amount of time, just for the sake of, you know, the shape of our thoughts. But I think conspiracy theories have been around since we started talking.
Erin Branham:I would imagine so. Because you may be asking yourself at this point, why are you talking about conspiracy theories on a like depth psychology for the rest of us, mythology stories thing, because what is a conspiracy theory? It's a story. It is a mythic story.
Karen Foglesong:It's a story, right?
Erin Branham:But it's also a mythic story, like very it all. It has the symbols. It has great power to move people. It, you can see how people use such stories to structure their understanding of the universe, which is exactly what we're talking about. That if you don't examine your stories, how do you know you don't believe a conspiracy theory?
Karen Foglesong:Right? It also kind of gives you, sometimes the conspiracy theories can even give you an origin story.
Erin Branham:Absolutely, absolutely. That's some of the things we said. So kind of the theories and things that we found as we had started looking into about why conspiracy theories happen, why so many people believe them, and let's, let's actually start with a definition of a conspiracy theory. Dr Karen Douglas gives this definition, a proposed plot carried out in secret, usually by a powerful group of people who have some kind of sinister goal, right? Do you agree with that? Karen, I
Karen Foglesong:would agree with that. That's most conspiracy theories that I've come in contact with. Yep, it's about that. And
Erin Branham:perhaps you should talk a little about your background at this point, Karen and your experience with conspiracy theories.
Karen Foglesong:So I did a deep dive into conspiracy theories for a while.
Erin Branham:You have some real bona fides. Like, come on.
Karen Foglesong:I don't like to admit this publicly, usually. But one of the ones that really caught me, I'm ashamed to say, is I keys Reptoid theory, and I went deep and hardcore into that one for a long time. There also what let's see, conspiracies about faces on Mars. There are people on Mars that one was that one just a little bit. Usually, they can't hold my interest because there's not any real evidence. So the Reptoid theory caught me because IQ was really smart. He focused in on bloodlines and money, and those are a couple of things that you can actually track and get some kind of evidence based information from. But even still, you know, just because three people walk into the building at a similar time of day doesn't mean that they actually went to the same room, you know, like, I think
Erin Branham:that's a classic conspiracy theory. Issue, right? Is the the issue of taking things that happen that you don't have an explanation for and going, Look, there's no explanation for this. Something's going on right, right? Like, just taking things out that have happened, that are around the universe, and like, at this time somebody was over here, and at that exact same time somebody else was over there, what does it mean? Right? Like, right?
Karen Foglesong:Right? Yes, it means that somebody was over there and somebody was over there. That's what it means.
Erin Branham:Yeah, but there's an attraction there, because there are explanations, right? Hidden within
Karen Foglesong:that's a big part of it is that we all want to believe that even if it's a bad guy, even if it's a monster in charge, that somebody is in charge. Definitely. You've ever sat in any kind of meeting for more than you know, twice tried to get a group project done. You know that people really have a hard time working together. So that kind of leans a really heavy weight against most conspiracy theory for me,
Erin Branham:definitely, I think that can be why they don't work for a lot of people, because there are definitely plenty people who, you know, scoff immediately at any of those kinds of things. I wanted to go a little bit further and talk about the work of Dr Karen Douglas, who I quoted earlier with that definition, and she is, by the way, a professor of social psychology at the University of Kent in the United Kingdom, and has written a great deal about conspiracy theories. And she says there's sort of three different sort of reasons or kinds of conspiracy theories, or three basic motivations. I'm sorry for believing in them. One is what's called etio- etiological which there are also etiological myths. Those are origin myths. Is what you were talking about. Karen, yes. Why is the world like this? A conspiracy theory will offer an explanation for why is the world like this? Mythologies, creation mythologies, do exactly that same thing. Yes, so there's one of those that's kind of a that's a nice attraction, because I'll be able to understand the other one is existential. Why is my life like this?
Karen Foglesong:That's a big one. That's a tough one, when you see we talked about capitalism in a previous episode, and the myth of capitalism is that from the time you start working, you should quickly progress to something better, even to your own island or airplane or something. So when that doesn't happen pretty quickly, why is my life like this becomes a very big question.
Erin Branham:Absolute, and then there's the social version of it, or the motivation, which is, I'm in the know, unlike all of these sheep, right righteousness, this idea that when you know this, you know what's really going on, and all you poor people, you're not even able to live properly or do anything the right way to your own advantage, you just are, you know, feeding whatever machine is going on, whatever sinister purposes that secret group has. You're unwittingly, you know, a cog in that machine.
Karen Foglesong:Right? Those are my favorites, because it's so silliness.
Erin Branham:It is so silliness. But you can understand that, right? That we all have a drive for superiority. Yes, we all have a drive for wanting to be in the in group. That is huge. And so there's a lot of attraction for a lot of these theories that go along as well. Know, in this our current era of Q Anon, which actually relates back to many of the earlier conspiracy theories that have rattled around our culture for quite some time. Right?
Karen Foglesong:Yes. Do you want to look at the fact that we found evidence of Roman conspiracies that we still know about today?
Erin Branham:Oh, absolutely.
Karen Foglesong:Or do you want me to dis on Q Anon, yet?
Erin Branham:Well, just wanted to make the connection there. Q Anon, this is like you were talking about the work of David Icke, who has written books and has grifted off of this conspiracy theory for a long time, and Q anon and they both share roots in a very old conspiracy theory, which is basically anti semitic or anti semitism, yes, itself at its very core, as often motivated by that belief. And you'll find those kinds of connections through several of them, but absolutely conspiracy theories go way, way back during the Roman era. Everybody's probably heard of the saying Nero fiddled while Rome burned. Yeah, that was a conspiracy theory, and it was so famous that we still know it. It is an idiom in our language, which goes to show you, tying us back to our quote at the very top of things, how powerful symbols are, right, right? That symbol of an emperor fiddling and enjoying himself while his city and his people are in flames is such a powerful symbol that it still has meaning today. So during the year end of AD 64, there was the Great Fire of Rome and erupted and was aided by wind, and there was everything was made out of wood. It lasted for almost a week and just completely like, if you can imagine, ancient Rome on fire for a week.
Karen Foglesong:That is just amazing!\
Erin Branham:And once it was finally put out, most of Rome was completely destroyed, like the city had been cleared and people were dying. They were left homeless Emperor Nero, who was a terrible emperor - that is completely agreed upon. He was a horrible he, like, ascended to the throne when he was 16 or something. And when you become ruler of the known world at 16, you're not going to be in a good head space by the time you're like, 19. No. Anyway, he was out of town, and he actually came back to Rome to try to help organize the victims. But at the same time, conspiracy theories had already spread about that he had set the fire, or had the fire set to clear space in the city for a lavish new palace that he wanted to build. And that's where the idea of him singing while burning was that he was at a party while this was all going on, all of this so and then, you know how Nero fought back?
Karen Foglesong:He was smart enough not to fight back directly.
Erin Branham:That's that is true,
Karen Foglesong:He didn't refute.
Erin Branham:He floated his own conspiracy theory instead blaming the Christian community for initiating the fire and spreading the rumors, thus giving rise to one of the most prevalent kind of sub myths of Christianity about the Roman persecutions, which were, you know, based in real historical things. Because Nero did, like go over the top at this point and do some terrible, terrible things to what was at that time, just this kind of small cult, very small minority group of people that that made them an easy target, so got the heat off of himself, yep, by putting it over there and using one conspiracy theory to fight another conspiracy theory. Because, truly, how do you fight a story, right,
Karen Foglesong:With another story. That's it. That's all you've got.
Erin Branham:there. Yeah, is there really, in any other way that you could do that?
Karen Foglesong:I don't think there's really any other way you can do that. Because the story even you can even see when one religion takes over another religion, even if they do it peaceably, there are still remnants of the old religion left in the stories, because the people can't let go of the story, right? It has a purpose and a hold on the peoples that are telling it, and so to get around it, all you can do is pull the story out. Pull it out a little bit, but you can't just erase it. It's we have to hold on to it. So I say no, that's
Erin Branham:a really good point, though, more generally, even sort of going beyond, I believe, when I was reading some of this about conspiracy theories, there was one that it was saying, once you've been exposed to a piece of misinformation or story like this, a conspiracy theory, once you've believed it, at any point, even if you then discard that belief, It sort of stays there's a shadow that stays behind. Yes, there's still some. It just like our stories imprint us, which is exactly what we talk about here, that you have to pay attention and explore and know what your most meaningful stories are. Yes, because that is how we understand everything, yes, and that is, and the stories that we believe, that we have at our core imprint us and are never going to go away, even if you manage to overturn. Like I said, I have some stories that I've had to overturn, and it's amazing how they that shadow stays with you.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. They stick. Yeah. Well, first of all, let me say, when I was studying Icke's Reptoid theory, I had no inkling that it was anti semitic. And that's part of you know, that's part of the danger of them too, is that you can be focused on one aspect of them, but really you're getting this kind of shadow recording of this other level, right? So I didn't realize that at all. So only later, after I'm out of it, do I realize, Oh my gosh, that was horrifying. Like, I'm not anti semitic at all. So that was horrifying. But second of all, what you're talking about with the shadow element, there are still, I haven't actively been in this realm and in about 30 years, and there are still pieces of Icke's so called evidence that I will see when I'm driving around or interacting with other people, and it'll click, hey, there's one of those things on this list. And I have to go, oh no, we're not paying attention to that list anymore. So, yeah, the shadow imprint is real, definitely.
Erin Branham:And it may seem so strange to if somebody you know this is another, this reminds me of a Joseph Campbell quote only, what is it? The definition of mythology is other people's religion, right? I think, yes, again, we talk about being self aware so because you know, you never think that you're involved in a conspiracy theory.
Karen Foglesong:Right? You believe you have the righteous knowledge, right?
Erin Branham:We as humans, our nature is once we believe a story we are sure it's right. That's what we think. That's why you say like, that's part of why we wanted to merge this idea of looking at our stories with depth psychology and. And because it's that examination getting to know yourself, which is depth psychology, and getting to know that through your stories, that is so very important. So from the outside, we're always looking at conspiracy theories. From the outside, they seem just nuts. They just seem like they don't make any sense. How could anybody possibly believe such things like said you hung out with some people who really did believe these things. What do you think was about it that really made them? Made it important to them?
Karen Foglesong:I think it's just when we when we found Dr Douglas's definitions and the things that she talked about, I you know, backwards looking at it absolutely it's about being disgruntled with where your place in life is at or what should have happened. There were some people that just felt disenfranchised on such a major level that they were not connected to anything else in the community. And I think conspiracy theories tend to attract people that have an absence of stories.
Erin Branham:Oh, that's interesting.
Karen Foglesong:They need a community, and this one gives them a community where they can all be righteous together, right? They know more and better than all of the groups that have not included them.
Erin Branham:That's very interesting. I could see the appeal. I have looked at, read about, checked out a variety of different conspiracy theories, because I guess maybe it's the secret knowledge part of it that has attracted me.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, they're seductive.
Erin Branham:Yeah,t hey're - that was the word I was struggling for. Thank you. There's something seductive about them. And it always seemed to me like, look, the world is like a really chaotic place, and the systems our society now that we live in is so huge and that it is far beyond, you know, what an individual can really deeply affect. Meaning, you know, we're all like, why is it like, the way that it is? And it's like, because of a million different reasons that have happened, from back, far back into the past, to the decisions that we're making today, to so many things that sometimes we feel like we're hurtling towards some, you know, not great fate, and everybody wants to stop it and wants to make a change, feels like we should, but doesn't know how, because it's so but this is terrifying, right? As even as I'm talking about it, I'm giving myself anxiety, right? And the idea that you could believe that, yes, there actually is some order. It may be messed up, but there's some order, and somebody is, you know, somewhere, somebody has set it up this way for a reason, even if it's an evil reason, that somehow there's some kind of relief in that, just to be able to go, oh, I mean, it really is, you know, sort of the inverse of my understanding of a lot of people's religious experience, which is including my own, which is that I can go, oh, well, you know, when I'm really at my wits end, I have a place I can go to that says, Okay, this doesn't make any sense to me. But ultimately, I believe that, you know, there's, there's some level of order to the universe, even if I can't fathom it, yeah, and that makes me feel better. Yeah, right, yes.
Karen Foglesong:Everybody knows about the Men in Black, right there. We've made it into a movie to kind of joke about it in a cultural way, but in truth, like
Erin Branham:No, no, back up. Back up. Wait, wait, actually, back up. Just a little bit. Hold your point, if you can. But go a little bit further into the Men in Black, because not everybody understands that that's a conspiracy.
Karen Foglesong:Oh, okay, right. But before it was a comic book and a movie, so the Men in Black were people, nondescript people who dress in black, just like they make fun of it in Men in Black, it was hysterical. I loved that movie because they really did make fun of the actuality of the conspiracy theory, right? Like when they burned off Will Smith's fingerprints. That was brilliant, right? These are people that you wouldn't notice. They're nondescript, but they can show up, like, if you talk about the wrong thing on your telephone, or you talk about or you interact with the communists, or, you know, whatever thing we're opposed to at the time, if you interact with those people, whatever the witch hunt is, then the Men in Black will come in get you.
Erin Branham:So it's a sort of a -
Karen Foglesong:and you just disappear,
Erin Branham:sort of a deep state police force.
Karen Foglesong:Yes!
Erin Branham:Right? Yeah, whatever, whatever you made that,
Karen Foglesong:Whatever the deep state is,
Erin Branham:exactly whatever that may be. I always knew it specifically in reference to the
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. aliens conspiracy theory. Yes, this is the Roswell aliens among us. We have been visited many times any version of the kind of UFO conspiracy. I always heard of the Men in Black in relation to that. But now that you say it, I was like, Oh, you're right that, like, think about it in terms of deep state. Yes. Then we used to joke about that in a job I had before where I lived in, you know, conservative Little Rock and the whole group of the of the art center would gg to lunch, and we would have these conversations, and then we get back in our car and go, all right, all the black van's gonna be showing up, because everybody heard us talking in there. Right? Yes. So, I mean, the men in black are such a pervasive conspiracy that it even trickles into office, you know, fun like it's not. It's become so blase. But you guys, truthfully, what can you do about strange people showing up in the middle of the night and abducting you? Nothing. So are you going to go around worrying about it every day. Or, like...?
Erin Branham:Well that was dark! (laughter)
Karen Foglesong:Well, I mean, that's the truth of it, though. Like, if they're out there, if they're real, they and they show up in the middle of the night and take you your friends don't know. Nobody knows. You just disappear. Too bad. I mean, like, but - Why waste time worrying about it? like?
Erin Branham:(laughing) That's great. Ultimately, an optimistic viewpoint there.
Karen Foglesong:right? But this is what you were saying earlier. Is that life has gotten so complicated, our organizational systems, our communities are so complex. Who do you complain to?
Erin Branham:No, you're absolutely right this, there is Right? a sense that's exactly part of what feeds conspiracy theories. Is we all live in a place where there's this sense that, yes, just just beyond our slightly ordered Street is, is this, you know, morass of society and government and whatever that you could just disappear into, never to be heard from again, right? And not really for any reason, which is why it's like, well, at least it's better to believe in the deep state and to feel like you understand what's going on a little bit better, right? Than just going, Oh, I guess the world is just chaos, which is sort of where I've landed, folks. I've just, I've just given myself to the chaos.
Karen Foglesong:To the chaos.(laughter) Well, I mean, with the Reptoid theory, it focused a lot on energetic movement, like whether or not you were in a positive space or in a negative space. And the more you were in a negative space, the more you were on the frequency with these beings, and they could find you and interact with you in negative ways. And so again, I don't have any super Reptoid weapon. Like, there's nothing I can do about that, but be positive, then I don't have to deal with them, right? Like, so maybe my way out was just a cop out. But ultimately, the best thing you can do is have your own connection with the universe. Know what stories you're telling and have good friends around you. I mean, that's don't interact with people that are hiding secrets, man!
Erin Branham:Good advice always! (music) We'd love to hear from you. You can email us at
Karen Foglesong:yourmythicu@gmail.com so y, o, u, r, m, y, t, h, i, c, u@gmail.com
Erin Branham:Yes, because we would love to hear from you any comments, suggestions, criticisms and your stories. Definitely want to hear your stories, so like said, rate and review us on Apple podcasts, or whatever your podcatcher of choice is, we'd love to hear from you, your mythic you@gmail.com (music) We sort of jumped in and mentioned Icke and reptoids a couple of times, and again, there may be listeners who have no idea what we're talking about. Could you give a quick rundown on the whole Reptoid theory there?
Karen Foglesong:Okay, so reptoids are I'm so embarrassed that I know all this information you guys, but I do so reptoids are multi dimensional creatures and are thought to exist in either the fourth or the fifth plane of this multi dimensional universe. However, they can interact on this plane, and they do that by sometimes they can puppet a person, a person can give over, like Hitler was said to be highly charismatic when speaking to a group of people, but almost like humdrum, dead when he wasn't on stage. So he was used as an example in this conspiracy theory, as an example of being puppeted by a fourth dimensional creature. So the idea is that when he's on stage, he is being puppeted, and when he's not, he's not. Right? This conspiracy goes in all directions, all over the government, world, governments, wealthy people, bloodlines, supposedly, Queen Elizabeth is a high level lizard. I'm sorry. Saying it out loud is just I can't stand it. I. Yeah, but to my credit, while I was studying this conspiracy theory, some very weird things happened to me, like I had a stranger I opened my house for a time for people that were traveling through the country, and I had a stranger camping at my house who explained to me about what she was doing and and I just decided to be a righteous bragger and explain about what I was doing, right because I had the secret knowledge. And while I was talking to this person, their face went white, I mean literally physical reaction. Their face went white, and they explained to me that their brother had been in the military. I hope I don't The Men In Black don't come and get me for saying this, but their brother had been in the military and had called their parents and told them who was going to win the election. It was when Bill Clinton was running, and they said that Bill Clinton was going to win because Hillary Clinton had more of the Reptoid bloodline and the marriages count, right? So Bill Clinton does win, and this guy calls home randomly and says some bit of information that the parents like find out to be true later. And finally, he tells them that he's been caught and they're coming to get him and whatever they say about him to not listen, and then the MPs busted him for methamphetamines creation and distribution. Though there was no, you know, he had no other dwelling, and there was no evidence of it in the house. The Little children of this person told their grandparents that they saw the MPs bring the drugs in. So, and this is important, because this is related to DIA and the underground tunnels and the reptoids move, supposedly freely around our country through these underground tunnels, and we don't know them. If you've ever seen the V, which was a 1980s cheesy sci fi is supposed to be a way of checking to see how we would deal with the reptoids if they revealed themselves as part of their conspiracy theory. So it goes on and on. It's a lot. There's more and more. It's a lot. It's enough that he's written several books about it. He, I think he adds to it as he thinks of new things.
Erin Branham:Yeah, he has been, he still has an active website, and still, as far as I know, is publishing books, has published over 20 so this entire theory comes from a single source, which is David Icke in a couple of his books in the mid 90s, he apparently was pretty clearly endorsing an old, old anti semitic text called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which is we were saying this when we say that there's an old anti semitic conspiracy theory. That's it. It comes from that book. And it is the idea that this is where the idea of sort of blood libel the Jewish people stealing Christian babies for their blood, and that secretly Jewish people who, of course, in Medieval and Renaissance Europe, controlled banking because of various Christian laws that are the Christians decided don't count anymore, right? Not going to get sidetracked. We're not gonna get sidetracked. No sidetracked on that one. So because of that and the long history of antiSemitism within Europe, this book, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, accused Jewish people of secretly being in charge. You've heard this theory before, trust Jewish people are secretly in charge of the world. This is what people make reference to today, with that nowadays, it is typically bandied about the world in a somewhat veiled form, such as George Soros backed, you know, New World Order, or, you know, all of that sort of idea, right? I used some of that language New World Order. A lot of Americans that I know have had this idea that we must resist the New World Order and the idea of any kind of a global government, because that's just more evidence that these mysterious people somewhere are trying to control us, right? When I think about it, I've known a lot of people who really vaguely believe particular conspiracy theory, because I'm from the south, right? It
Karen Foglesong:is shifts. They you can change the name, like, like I said I wasn't - nowhere did Icke, when I was involved with this, did Icke say specifically Jewish. But it was focused on reptoids. So you just replace the Zions Jewish with the Reptoid, right? Like, it just, it goes on and on, and
Erin Branham:he was big on, like, the Rothschilds were all up in it, right?
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, but that's, that's because their wealthy family, is what I thought, not because they were Jewish. But
Erin Branham:that's, again, that's that's long, long used and long coded kinds of anti semitic things like I said. Q anon has also made some reference and been tied up with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. 9/11, was an inside job, which is popular conspiracy theory these days also has Anti semitism at its core. The Satanic Panic and any idea of sacrificing babies and using their blood sort of is making reference back to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and blood libel and
Karen Foglesong:with the Satanic Panic, we've already talked about too, how that was like a conspiracy, because we couldn't handle the idea that we were becoming communally aware that children and women were being systematically abused, and we couldn't handle that, so we came up with the story, yeah, about the Satanic Panic to cover up that,
Erin Branham:well, to fight it. Like you said, it's, it's really, now that I think about it, it's that idea of of, here comes a story we don't, we can't handle. We must put forward another story already talked about that cover that same ground to erase, yeah, that first one. So the story that's coming in is the data is telling us that most women who are abused are abused by somebody in their own home, and everybody went, Oh, we can't handle that. No, no, it's, here's another story. So all that the Nashville bomber. Do you remember the Nashville bomber? He was, he was a conspiracy theory believer.
Karen Foglesong:It's demons,
Erin Branham:reptoids and again, anti semitic, all of these things. It's amazing how many of them go back to this very old one, to the to that kind of core, you know, bigoted idea that it's some, that it's"the other" you know, this other group, this, this group of people who you don't understand, who would, who keep to themselves, who all of that, all the reasons why Jewish people have have been made the scapegoat so often,
Karen Foglesong:right? That's why I say I get so frustrated with Q anon today, and probably the out the people, the older people that were around me when I was into Icke. The same thing is that each generation is on this righteous kick that they have some sacred information, and it's just a twisted copy of the one before it.
Erin Branham:I was about to use those exact words, can you believe it? They're not even creative enough to come up with a new and original conspiracy theory.
Karen Foglesong:There's no - there's not even any originality.
Erin Branham:Come on, people!
Karen Foglesong:No, right, just come up with something unique. Next time you guys look like, find some evidence, because they're out there. I mean, yes, you guys start like, I, I grew up in a small town, and my stepfather was a politician, and so yes, there are small little things that happen. Like, if I got pulled over by a police officer, I got a ticket if they didn't like my stepfather, not if I did something bad and I didn't get a ticket if they did like my stepfather, not if I did something bad or not, right? Like, those kind of things do happen. That's nepotism. You guys. We're very good at it as humans, because we like what we know we feel safe, but otherwise, like, No, I don't like no. My stepfather wasn't running the state or running even the town. They can't even - the judges and the mayors can't even decide which page they're on.
Erin Branham:I know, but that's a good point. Part of the reason that conspiracy theories are seductive is that, because, yes, stories of corruption come out all the time, right? People are able to keep certain amounts of things you know, or to do, to do things over. Look at, go on Hulu and watch all the documentaries about all the people who were just, you know, just grifting like crazy. Try like, who's the blood lady? I can't think of her now.
Karen Foglesong:I can't, I don't, I don't know, but I -
Erin Branham:Homes, Elizabeth Holmes, okay. Elizabeth. Holmes, yeah, with Theranos, you know, here's this person who did manage to spin plates out of nothing for a good long while and a couple of billion dollars worth of funding, and then that comes out. And you do have these stories around where you're like, Yeah, people get, you know, do things in secret, sometimes big schemes, it comes out. You always have the sense, I certainly have the sense that we don't know them all, right, there are still some things out there that are secret, yeah, and the fact that we know that, you know, that takes away part of your doubt when you encounter conspiracy theory. Well, maybe, you know, maybe, maybe, like, it's sort of, you know, depending on that's my thing. I have better at a small conspiracy theory, like, I'm more likely to buy that then, as you've said, the great big world dominating one. I'm just like, you know, that's too big. Nobody would ever be able to keep that under wraps. No,
Karen Foglesong:no, and they can't. Then no. Somebody would get jealous. And yeah, people are just that's the same as like, nuclear energy is safe, as long as humans don't make a mistake, right? Okay, so same thing. But really, all of this boils down, for me, how important this is, as far as mythology and your stories go, is that you guys, if you're given over to somebody else's story, you are not in charge of your story. And the biggest conspiracy on this whole planet is that you need somebody to go between you and the source. That is a real conspiracy, not by any one group, but by a whole like, I call them social conspiracies because they're like just things that have happened sometimes, not even they're in unrelated fields, but have pushed thought patterns in such a way that we developed this process, and we've developed this process that you need a preacher or a shaman or a somebody to get to God, and that is not true, period.
Erin Branham:You tell them, Karen!
Karen Foglesong:I'm telling it! I'm on my soapbox about that one.
Erin Branham:No, I mean, that's why we're doing this, because it's, it's the power of one's own stories, understanding what you really believe. Because if you don't know your stories, you don't know what you really believe, right? Because, trust me, those are the things that will hop out at you and and the human psyche, the human soul is in infinitely complex. It takes a lifetime to get to know yourself, yes and yeah, and we change, right? There were times when I felt like I had a nice, good handle on myself at a certain age, and then I changed, and my handle on myself slipped, and I had to go and do the whole thing all over again in terms of exploring, right?
Karen Foglesong:There were times when I thought conspiracy theories were true.
Erin Branham:So it's important as well. Like it's a process. It happens all the time. We encounter new stories all the time. Our one of the other interesting things is because of sort of the story of science, which at some point we'll probably need to get into right part of our scientific point of view is that we don't know everything yet, right? There's a sense of the universe is always we're learning a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. So knowledge is open ended, and that also means our ability to weave new stories is open ended, which is a lovely thing. It
Karen Foglesong:is, what was it? They used to say past the point of the map, here there be monsters, right? And now we say past the point of our knowledge. Here there be aliens. But really, you guys, I really believe that it's a process of understanding, and we will eventually understand more about maybe there really are aliens, or maybe, you know, there is some more knowledge that we need to find out that the aliens are somehow us. I'm trying. I'm distorting the point, but I'm trying to add weight to your point of the growth of knowledge, right? We
Erin Branham:don't know what we'll find next. We don't right, we just don't know what we'll find next. So we don't know how we'll understand things tomorrow, even, which is - it's beautiful. It's a wonderful unfolding process that is really cool, and can I tell you a funny story, sure.
Karen Foglesong:Okay,
Erin Branham:I walk with my sister about once a week. Okay? We have all kinds of different sorts of talks. And we were talking about something, and somehow we got onto what I think is related to this point, which was I had had this kind of idea about, like, death. Like, why does there have to be death? And understanding that within the core of my own mythology, which is pantheistic, and I had had this really profound moment, and I wanted to share this really profound moment with my sister, right? And I was saying, Oh, I was thinking about death, and I was trying to remember why I had been thinking about death, because I didn't want to tell her the whole thing without sort of how I'd gotten there, like, wasn't just random, yeah. And finally I remembered, I was like, oh, oh. And I remember what it was. I was watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and she just fell out. She just started laughing really hard. And she goes, I thought you were gonna say like you were reading Freud or something. You were like, spirits, etc. And she goes, I've never seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And I was like, All
Karen Foglesong:right, all right. Look, no way. All right.
Erin Branham:I was like, all right, but look, there's this really famous episode called the body, which I just seen the night before, right? Which was the whole thing, which was why I was thinking about death Buffy fans, if you're listening, I just now went, so if you don't know spoilers, in the body, which is a late season episode like late in the run of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a superhero comic book, essentially the whole storyline, the whole way that they approach it. It's a superhero story. All the way she has superpowers. There are lots of monsters, hijinks and lots of conspiracies, lots of conspiracies, hijinks ensue. And then in this one episode, out of nowhere, Buffy comes home one day and finds her mother dead on the floor, right? And all of the superhero hijinks stopped dead for this entire episode, and all the characters just face death. And this superhero, who's always been able to jump in and do cannot. She just can't do anything. She can't do anything, and it was a terrific episode for getting at the helplessness that one feels in the course of death. And there's a great moment trying to explain to my sister why I'd gotten to this. And it's like, well, there's this great episode. See, there's this woman. Well, she's not really woman. She was 1000 year old vengeance demon who got turned into a woman. But anyway, she's my sister's looking at me- not that she doesn't understand. My sister's in movies. She knows how to tell a story, yeah? But it's like, okay, so she's like, she's not, doesn't know what to do, and she's asking these really inappropriate questions of everybody. And I was like, trying to think of some of and I was like, you know, she's the because she was a vengeance demon, she's not human. She's on the outside. I was like, Shannon goes, she's the Spock. And I said, Yes, exactly. She's the Spock, right? And she has this moment where she just, all of a sudden, gets really, really frustrated with everybody, and she's like, but I don't understand, I don't understand, why can't I ask these questions. It doesn't make any sense. She was here, and then she's not here, and it just doesn't make any sense, and it's stupid, and it's mortal, and it was just, it's just a very powerful narrative moment. It is a story, and I and because her character, being the outsider, is has a kind of childlike quality to these I got to thinking about, well, you know, what am I going to do when my children actually do face death and I have to explain to them what it is? And that was how I got to thinking about, you know, why? Does death actually exist in our universe? And the idea that our universe is is creative, it has to. It just constantly goes to new places and makes new things. And there's only so much material, right? And that's it. That's it, and that's it. And that that so things have to be recycled and redone in order to get to that creativity. And that is the, you know, the essence, to me, that is the essence of God. And you know, it is the whole reason anything exists at all is because of that creative force. Then I found it very comforting in a religious sort of way, as if you're pantheist. That's my idea of a pantheistic idea of death. Yes, absolutely. I hope that is in some way related to what we were talking about.
Karen Foglesong:Well, I think there are many conspiracies out there that try to deal with death in some in some manner, or distract us from death. It's a great story.
Erin Branham:I was thinking. I was thinking more about the point of that idea that we live in this sort of open universe, this open our knowledge is open ended. Our stories are open ended. Our growth and development and getting to know ourselves needs to be open ended as well.
Karen Foglesong:Okay, I can go with that. I agree with you. And just before we sign off, y'all, I want to make sure that you know that after if you've heard this episode and then either Erin or I disappear suddenly, please call the press.
Erin Branham:9laughter) You are so wrong.
Karen Foglesong:I can't help it!
Erin Branham:On a more practical note, assuming we get to stick around, yep, please join our Patreon, right.
Karen Foglesong:There you go. We'll see you back here next time. Y'all have a great day. Thank you for joining us at mythic u we want to hear from you. Please visit our website at mythic u.buzzsprout.com that's m, y, t, h, i, c, u dot, Buzz sprout.com for more great information on choreographing your own spirituality, leave us a comment and donate if you have the means and the interest, if you'd like to support our work more regularly, visit our Patreon and become a member of mythic you, depending on the level at which you join, members receive early access to new episodes, bonus episodes and free mythic you gifts. Do.
