Mythic U
Join us to explore practices for discovering the stories that animate each of us. By understanding the meaningful stories that are your personal mythology you can choreograph your own unique way of attending to the needs of your soul. Hosted by Karen Foglesong and Erin Branham
Mythic U
Affectionate Anarchy: The Mythology of the Muppets
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Join us for a fun romp through the Magic Store and the works of the genius artist of play, Jim Henson. Puppets were dismissed as mere children's entertainment until Jim Henson took the art form to unforeseen levels with the affectionate anarchy of the Muppets. We explore Henson's philosophy of difference, creativity and play!
SHOW NOTES
The Henson Company
Jim Henson: Idea Man now on Disney +
How Muppets Creator Jim Henson Changed Puppetry - NPR article
The World of Jim Henson - youtube documentary
Jim Henson & Philosophy: Imagination and the Magic of Mayhem
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Hi, welcome back to Mythic U. I'm Erin Branham.
Karen Foglesong:and I'm Karen Fogelsong.
Erin Branham:Today we are going to be exploring the Magic Store, that is, talking a little bit about the works of Jim Henson. If you are not aware of this, on January 29 2024 Elmo, the Muppet monster toddler of Sesame Street tweeted, "Elmo is just checking in. How is everybody doing?" And it was all anybody talked about on Twitter that day. I was I was there 1000s upon 1000s of people responded, informing Elmo that they were not so good, kicking off a general sweep of thoughts and articles and other commentary on emotional well being. My favorite thing about that day was that after everybody responded to Elmo for 24 hours, "whoo, not gonna lie, Elmo, it's rough out here." "I'm struggling Elmo," I'm doing that- somebody tweeted from people I follow tweeted, "Hey, Elmo was just checking in. He didn't ask for all this." But then the next day all the other Sesame Street characters started tweeting."Hey, how are you doing? So we heard that everybody wasn't feeling well." "Hi, I was just checking" - even Oscar the Grouch came in and said, "I don't really care much how people are feeling but my friend Slimy the worm does and he'll, he'll listen to you, if you need to talk." So it turned into this whole thing about emotional well being. And it got Karen and me thinking about how much emotional well being we've experienced from the works of Jim Henson across Sesame Street, The Muppet Show and movies, Fraggle Rock, as well as his more experimental works, such as The Dark Crystal and Labyrinth.
Karen Foglesong:YAY!
Erin Branham:So Karen is a puppeteer. So she has a special connection to Henson's art form.
Karen Foglesong:Yes!
Erin Branham:And we're both Gen X, which means we were raised by Henson's creations.
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:And we both agree he was a once in many generations talent who carved out a unique mythology in his work. So we're going to talk about it. So what does Jim Henson mean to you, Karen?
Karen Foglesong:Oh, my gosh, Jim Henson was inspiration for me. He was sometimes father figure, even through the puppet. He helped me to see that imagination was a place that you could live, that you could bring forward and interact with people. I think being raised in Mississippi where things were so racially motivated and subdivided into strict groups, the Muppets helped me to understand that - that's not true. You could be green. And still, to this day, I have a poster on my wall. It's not really a poster. It's small. But in my office, it's a picture of Kermit, and it says "Eats flies, dates a pig, Hollywood star. Live your dreams." So yeah, I think it's a lot.
Erin Branham:I love that one. That's a good
Karen Foglesong:I think you gave it to me, because it was a billboard when we were living in Arkansas. And I think you printed it off and gave it to me.
Erin Branham:That's right.
Karen Foglesong:It's still on my wall, lady!
Erin Branham:Yeah, because Kermit is an inspiration.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:So tell us a little bit, you're gonna talk to us a little bit about the history of puppets. And sort of where that - I mean, that, to me was
Karen Foglesong:Okay. always one of the things that was so fascinating about Jim Henson, it was an unusual art form. He took it to a level that nobody had ever really seen before at that, certainly at that mass media level. People do amazing things with puppets these days, but I think a lot of that comes out of Jim Henson and I was just watching a documentary on him in, uh, for this, and especially towards the end of his life in the late 80s he really seemed to be really interested in pushing the art form. What else could he do? How else could he engineer you know, new worlds and new ways of doing puppets? So - Yes, as far as I know, Kermit riding the bicycle in the Muppet Movie has still never been outed. Nobody has released the secret to how they did that. And I hope it stays that way. Do you know?
Erin Branham:It was in this documentary!
Karen Foglesong:It was?
Erin Branham:No, it was in this documentary,
Karen Foglesong:Okay.
Erin Branham:That I was just watching. Yes, this one I was just watching that I found online and it is called something because it was literally just The World of Jim Henson and it was made in 1994. And they show a shot of how they do the bicycles.
Karen Foglesong:Oh, I'm so sad. They revealed it! Ah, okay. I'll have to I'll have to go watch it though, if it's revealed, I have to see it, I have to see it.
Erin Branham:I'll link this doc in our show notes.
Karen Foglesong:Puppetry starts around the campfire. And this is a storytelling attribute or storytelling like one upmanship. You know, so we have folks, you know, acting out stories, and I'm doing all these big movements that nobody can see on the podcast, but the, you know, if you're able to move your body and act out the things that you're talking about, then people are gonna want to listen to your storytelling more than someone else's storytelling. And so puppetry becomes a way of showmanship to like bring to life a character, to become for the storyteller to become a dragon, or a fish or a bear. You know, and, and it was probably we think it was probably pretty simple. Like, the hunters brought back a bear. And so we stick the, you know, the head over us and RARW, we're a bear! You know, and so the better that you could isolate your muscle structure and make yourself become the bear with the skin, the more people were excited. If you could make little kids scream with the bear coming to life, then you were the, the movie star campfire storyteller, you know, like. I guess it wouldn't have been the campfire, it would have been the tribal fire. Right. So -
Erin Branham:Yeah, you're saying that and it's making me think of, there's whole sets of works of art that are designed, you know, if you think of like African ritual costuming and masks that are designed for you to take on this other personality, right, by putting on the giant mask and moving it! It was very, it's become a big thing in museums recently, that you cannot just show those African masks, sitting still. There's usually now a video monitor next to them so that you can see them in motion as a dancer uses them because they're like, you can't -
Karen Foglesong:Excellent!
Erin Branham:That's not the artwork.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah!
Erin Branham:With it sitting still.
Karen Foglesong:Excellent! That's wonderful. I love that. Yes. Because that's the truth of it. Puppetry is connected to mask work. And I would say developed out of mask work, you know, as like, basically the first puppets were elaborate masks. Let's say that, and like the Inuits have, some of those
Erin Branham:It's okay, we're a podcast, we're supposed to be tribal cultures have giant bird masks, that the lips open and close, or the beak, not lips, really, but beak opens and closes, you know, things like that. And we get more and more complicated with them as civilization grows. And then we also simplify this idea because one of our favorite things are shadow puppets or Punch and Judy is a hand puppet. Punch and Judy has been going on for generations, and it's still going on. And one of the things that I think is really important long-winded. You were saying that about them being, you know, about puppetry is this idea that the puppet can break rules that the human can't break, and which is the big attraction with Punch, especially in England, where they tend to be more, I would say, staid, they have more rigid social structure than we do in America. And Punch doesn't care, he breaks all of those rules. Punch even punches the devil in some of his, like, little shows, you know, and that's his niche. So what Jim Henson did was bring puppetry, because in the world of entertainment, mimes and puppeteers are at the very bottom. The strata the hierarchy for popularity, like it may be magicians like I had a friend once that was a magician who said he got into being a magician because he thought it recognizable personalities. One of the things I had forgotten, would get him girls. And then he laughed because until the people like Criss Angel came on the scene, being a magician wasn't cool. You know, Jim Henson brought puppetry out of this like lower echelon hierarchy of entertainment and brought it to the surface where regular people saw it and appreciated it and loved it, you know. Like Kermit! And, and I was telling you while we were discussing our plans for this episode that I followed the Miss Piggy diet (laughs) and had the most success with that ever. So not only did they become popular as puppets, but they became popular as household things, you know, lunchboxes and diet books. And you know, like they became - Jim Henson made which was in this documentary that I just watched, - which was these puppets be real characters that we loved and wanted to wear a t shirt of, you know. And I I think it's just him, like he, like exuded this. I don't know if you heard Brian Henson once said that Jim Henson did the voice of the Swedish Chef when he was carving the turkey on Thanksgiving, and I think that's what it was like to be around Jim Henson. He was always bubbling out these voices, you know, and silly places and puppeteering. If you do research about Jim, you find that he just kind of stumbled into it as a way of expressing himself while he was working in college, and it just stuck, you know, but maybe it's just the place that had enough room for all those fantastic! Kermit once guest hosted for Johnny Carson. voices that were coming out of him. That's a long winded answer, but I did have to go from the cave to Jim Henson. So(laughing) here we are...
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:Who was THE late night host of the 70s and 80s. Prior to our current round of, you know, Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel and Fallon, Jimmy Fallon,
Karen Foglesong:He was, I would say he was the forefather, or one of them.
Erin Branham:I've ever seen. Fozzie's like peeking out behind behind the curtains going, going, "Be funnier! You're dying!" It's very, it's hilarious. (laughing) Miss Piggy was interviewed on 60 Minutes, and the host could not keep a straight face. And she played off of that beautifully. Ted Koppel interviewed Kermit, and Fozzie the Bear about these - to explain about the stock market and bear and bull markets. And then the best little clip was of Kermit and Miss Piggy presenting at the Emmys. So they were - this is something I'm not sure - I wonder how interesting this pod is going to be for everybody. Because it's - I wonder how generational the appeal is. If you weren't there to see, like Kermit and Miss Piggy present on the Emmys, which we probably - if that did happen, if I was there when that happened, and I probably was - I was probably like, Oh, yay, the Muppets!
Karen Foglesong:Oh, I watched the Emmys that year.
Erin Branham:That's gonna be better than it was five years ago.
Karen Foglesong:Yes. I watched the Emmys that year because Kermit and Miss Piggy were presenting.
Erin Branham:You were always excited to see them.
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:Yeah. You were always excited to see them. You knew it was gonna be good. They were everywhere. They were absolutely everywhere.
Karen Foglesong:Well, there's gonna be some generational lag, but also Disney bought the Muppets and so there's the Muppet Babies for the generation that came after us. And then I think one of the best additions to the Muppet family in the modern world is the King Prawn.(In King Prawn voice) I am not a shrimp! (laughs) King Prawn! He's so great!
Erin Branham:That's true. And they still do. I'll say this. It is it's becoming that the Christmas movie we watch on the regular is Muppet Christmas Carol. That's the one we watched this year out of all of the sort of traditional things that we watch.
Karen Foglesong:I know it's so cheesy, but I watched John Denver's Muppet Christmas. And it is so cheesy. But it is so much fun!
Erin Branham:Ohh! That's so sweet! Talk about a blast from the past.
Karen Foglesong:Right?
Erin Branham:Well, I was gonna say like the appeal, some of, some of the appeal for me around Jim. I was gonna say so we've sort of gotten to Jim Henson and where he started, which was actually in commercials and and that he, like you said he stumbled into puppetry. Right? He got, he started doing puppets, because he wanted to be in television. And he there was a job where they were like, you can be in TV, but you've gotta do puppets. And he was like, Okay. Which is hilarious to sort of think and interesting that he found this place, and what was said over and over again, in everything that I read, and everything that I've watched about him and his colleagues, the people who worked with him was exactly what you said, there was just all of this creativity bubbling out of him all the time, all the time, all the time.
Karen Foglesong:Right, what you just said is the epitome of that hierarchy of puppet, of entertainers. They believed that they could just grab any guy and go here, put a puppet on your hand. This is, you know, this is the way it was. Now, it's not that way. And part of that is because of the professionalism that Jim Henson developed and brought to the art form. Okay, sorry to interrupt you.
Erin Branham:Very good point. You're right, he did something - because he scaled it up, which is the thing I'm kind of fascinated about now is the scaling up of what puppets were
Karen Foglesong:Yes. thought of and what they could do. And he just kept taking it higher and higher and higher and pushing it further and further out, which was just fascinating. After he got this job on the TV
Erin Branham:And you are a physical building in one part of show, and then he started doing some commercials, very short commercials, and they were incredibly popular. And this was what gathered the attention of the just-forming Children's that large geographical area. Television Workshop, which created Sesame Street. So
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:So you have to constantly think about how can you share the materials out and get past the distance, because somebody suggested to the creator of Sesame Street, that is the biggest barrier for a lot of people to take part in these kinds of cultural and educational things. So, and I they're like, Hey, you seen this guy who is doing the was also a child of TV, the TV generation 100%, I still love to take things in that way. And so Sesame Street was just - it was commercials? What if we got that? What if we use that? What revolutionary, as, in education, and television. And then you add Jim Henson into that mix, and it's just that it was just gold if we put that on the show, and she thought that was a great in the 70s.
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:It was just absolutely the most amazing thing, the whole idea that, you know, that education could idea. And boom, Jim Henson and the Muppets land on Sesame change populations, that people didn't have access to the right education and this was a way to get it into their homes for Street. So that's where my experience of the Muppets free. To think about people who were, you know, historically under resourced. It was really in many ways aimed at educating really, or Jim Henson's work, really starts as a Gen Xer, and people who were poor, people who were of color, not just the children, but it was thought of as something that their parents could sit with them and learn
Karen Foglesong:Together.
Erin Branham:It democratized education in a way that was even as an educator, Sesame Street is like, (sings angelic notes) it beyond what public schools did.
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:And it I mean, it was just such a revolutionary is the gold standard of informal education and distance learning, concept and that they then put the thing, which Jim Henson did a lot of, which was putting real people and puppets together. So that they you create this kind of interesting world, which is which are things that I do a lot of my job and that I've done for between, you know, it has all the imaginative elements of the puppets, but then it has this real thing you're interacting is a lot of years. In that case, you sort of have this real characters. And when he read about, oh, the way that you know, he created Big Bird, and that they're talking about how he engineered that whole setup, which is very unusual puppet responsibility to a large geographic area. setup. Karen, you want talk a little bit about Big Bird?
Karen Foglesong:Well, Big Bird is interesting, because it's how do you make yourself how do you make a five foot person be a seven foot bird, you know, and have expression and be able to move its lips, and you know, all those things? So yeah, there's a kind of engineering behind building a puppet that, I don't know that it... engineers would appreciate it being called engineering, because it's kind of I don't know, it's awkward. And it has to make sense for the person inside the costume. Like you can tell if a puppet is really inexpensive. What what you're lacking is the personal engineering, like, just recently, I played, I was a Bluey puppet at a festival. And there's no cone inside the head to hold the head up. So the actual, I'm still doing hand gestures, the puppet itself is sitting on top of the crown of my head, you know, and pulling on my hair, because there's not the apparatus to hold it on my head inside the costume. Because the costume was purchased in this kind of one size fits all kind of way, you know, of course you can bring it to life, it doesn't matter. It is levels of uncomfort. You know, I got to play a six foot purple bird once that was kind of crafted to be like Big Bird. And it was really a lot of fun. But it was my right arm had to be above my head the entire time. And the right arm of the puppet is operated in different ways, depending on what you're doing with it, but I had to make the mouth move up, up above me.
Erin Branham:Right, which is just -
Karen Foglesong:it's crazy. It's crazy making and with something like Big Bird they have to do it backwards because they're facing a television camera. They're looking at a TV monitor, and they're doing exactly the opposite. Like if you need like if I don't know if you need to go right you have to go left to get it to be on correctly flipped around for the viewer.
Erin Branham:Yeah, that was the interesting thing. I didn't realize in them explaining it. There's a TV monitor inside Big Bird's belly. And that's actually what the performer is watching. So yeah, that's just amazing engineering and the site but the idea of having Big Bird, and that Big Bird was supposed to be the child that stood in for all the children who are watching. And just that is there's a level of thinking and educational thinking there that has always impressed me. And Sesame Street presented a world in which there was teaching of basic things like counting, and letters and reading and sounds and all this but there was also information on social and what we call today social emotional learning, on how to be a good friend, how to resolve conflict, how to deal with things as heavy as death. You know, it just, it's, I can't say enough about I'm just like, totally fan girling over here about Sesame Street.
Karen Foglesong:I totally understand this. I love to Sesame Street. And the ringtone on my phone right now is from a Sesmae Street character.
Erin Branham:So part of what I did in research for this episode is to read the book, Jim Henson and Philosophy, subtitle Imagination and the Magic of Mayhem, which I love because I think "the magic of mayhem" really captures a lot of what Henson was about.
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:But in the first part of it, which is about the, the social philosophy of Jim Henson, here's a quote because I think this is really terrific and what it - what was generally portrayed in Henson's works that really comes across in Sesame Street that's very important, which is - "Henson's society lacks a notion of what it means to be normal. And in this context, his characters explore questions of identity and authenticity free from the superficiality of conformity. Through the radical diversity of his characters, Henson suggests that difference should be sim- more than simply tolerated. Differences are good for the world, and our closest friendships and most meaningful learning experiences happen in relationships with those who are different from us." Which is just a beautiful thing.
Karen Foglesong:Absolutely. That's what I was saying earlier, I truly believe that the Muppets helped me to understand that differences. It's not just okay. It's better that way. It's better if you have a green friend. It's better.
Erin Branham:Definitely. Well, and this is one of the things you say, you know, it's it, people are often sort of flummoxed or baffled by the fact that there are many conservatives in America, who hate PBS who just hate everything about it. And they'll say it's because of various - they'll say it's because it's full of all these liberal ideas, well they're talking about Sesame Street, there's literally been treatises written from the opposing political viewpoint that difference is not good, that diversity is not good, that have just hated on Sesame Street for presenting that, which is interesting, because you would think something as simple as children's education and entertainment would not be political, but sometimes it is.
Karen Foglesong:Well, negative propaganda is all based on isolationism. Everybody has to be in a tiny subgroup and you need to keep to your own group. You know, so yeah, Sesame Street is evil compared to that ideal. Because that's our saying y'all at all. Let's get together and, and celebrate. Hey, y'all, we're gonna take a little break.
Erin Branham:We'd love to hear from you. You can email us at
Karen Foglesong:mythic u@gmail.com. So while you are your myth, i c u@gmail.com Yes, because
Erin Branham:we would love to hear from you. Any comments, suggestions, criticisms, and your stories. I definitely want to hear your story. So like I said rate and review us on Apple podcasts or whatever your pod catcher of choice is. We'd love to hear from you your mythic you@gmail.com.
Karen Foglesong:Welcome back.
Erin Branham:Definitely. And so from Sesame Street, he goes on to do The Muppet Show, which you can tell us a little bit about the Muppet Show and how it came to be, right, and where it landed in terms of production.
Karen Foglesong:Oh yeah, so it's in though it's in that time period where variety shows were the big thing in the world and I think it's hysterical. I've been trying to get people to do variety shows. The entire career I've had in entertainment, and everybody is telling me it's too expensive. We can't do it. This is all they used to do the live band, live comics, live puppets, live and then- So the Muppet Show, took all of those elements and brought them together. What they were lacking was like the Donnie & Marie show, or the Sonny and Cher show what they were lacking was the big star right? They they brought Kermit from Sesame Street. That's what they had, right? Then they just follow the the variety show kind of sample you know, you have a few bits of the main anchor story and then you have the rotating cast of entertainers to come in and everybody wanted to be on The Muppet Show. I was telling you when we were doing this, Sam the eagle was my least favorite puppet on The Muppet Show. And now as an adult, I think he was so brilliant. He's that conservative voice him and the old guys that used to sit in the balcony. I can't remember their names, but they're always just like that were -
Erin Branham:Statler and Waldorf.
Karen Foglesong:Well there you go. Statler and Waldorf. They were like, the Scrooge, Scrooge twins. Sitting up there saying, Ah, this is dumb. This is stupid. But you know, even with all the success of The Muppet Show, it went for, you know, I think six seasons. Maybe seven seasons?
Erin Branham:Yeah, five or six years.
Karen Foglesong:And, and you guys this is back when a season was like 70 episodes. Okay, not like six. There was a Christmas episode, there was Halloween, there was an Easter episode, you know that it went on and on. So we got lots of episodes, I don't think they were quite 70. But you know, hyperbole. Anyway, with the success of that show, because that many seasons is a good, it shows you that it was successful, because if it wasn't selling commercials, then they canceled pretty quickly. But even with that he couldn't get funding for his movies in America. And he was always funded by English or European companies to get those movies produced until Disney bought them as far as I know.
Erin Branham:Yeah, even the Muppet Show that was was pitched to all of the networks. And they said no, at first, which is a crazy to think about. And so the Muppet Show goes on as, which Karen says was as a variety show, everybody wanted to be on it. There was a long history, I realized as well though the cameos with Sesame Street as well, like there was a lot of goodwill already built up amongst celebrities and the fact that you know, because they had been invited to and be going on Sesame Street. That's something that I mean, I think it still happens. I know that there's I've seen clips of you know, modern day celebrities as well. But I just remember that as a Stevie Wonder was on the set was on set, like, yes, we watching Sesame Street, and I would clip from one little clip to the next one. And it'd be Stevie Wonder, like, sitting there with Rowlf the dog, and they were gonna play some music, and it just was part of your everyday life. It's just part of your school day, you would sit down and you would watch Sesame Street because it was so effective. Like, that's the part that I love as an educator. And Sesame Street is still uses research. When they make those little sequences and clips they research that, man, they put kids in front of it, and they test them before and they test them afterwards. And they see did they learn that thing? And if they didn't, then Sesame Street goes back and re does the lesson until the kids learn it. I mean, that's amazing. That's better than we have in most of our schools,
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, yeah. And, and it's not they will - y'all.
Erin Branham:Like actually tested lesson plans that effectively teach
Karen Foglesong:Tested and effective and also entertaining. The child wants to watch Sesame Street. Nobody's making them watch Sesame Street.
Erin Branham:Absolutely. It's about the engagement quality of it, which again, as somebody who works in museums, I have to do I do free choice education, which means people need to want to come to do it.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:For me to even have an audience to do education with. So it is something I greatly admire and look to as a big inspiration. And interestingly, stuff is big inspiration for a lot of other people. Part of what drew me around back around and sort of been thinking about Jim Henson for a while is that a big fan of Ted Lasso, one of the writer, comedian actors on that, Brett Goldstein, who played Roy Kent, and he's an incredibly funny guy- loves the Muppets and he talks, because he was getting interviewed all over the place for Ted Lasso and he kept talking about the Muppets. That's right. So it came brought me sort of back around, like he talks about how important he's, he's our age. So he talks about how important the Muppet Show was to him. And he said this, which I just think is so brilliant. He says the secret of the Muppets is that they're not very good at what they do. Kermit is not a great host, Fozzie is not a great comedian. Miss Piggy is not a great singer. Like none of them are actually good at it, but they fucking love it. And they're like a family and they like putting on the show and they have joy and because of the joy, it doesn't matter that they're not good at it. And that's what we should all be like. Muppets.
Karen Foglesong:Okay, I will go with you on that quote. But I will also caution you not to say that quote in front of Miss Piggy, you might get hurt.
Erin Branham:She will karate chop you for sure. That is absolutely true. That's why the Emmys thing was so funny. It was Miss Piggy. She was (laughs) being a diva. That was so hilarious. All that when he actually says Oh, this guy Brett Goldstein says his ultimate goal is to work with the Muppets and he wants - his pitch, he wants to do a Pride and Prejudice with Miss Piggy and him as the romantic lead which I just I'm like, Please, somebody make that movie. Please make that movie!
Karen Foglesong:Well, that's a problem with puppets in America. In other countries this is not a problem, like the Japanese have Bunraku , which is an adult style puppetry. And it's, I mean, it is an art form in and of itself. And like I said, in England, we have Punch and Judy, which is also adult oriented. And there's examples like that all over the world. But in America, we want to believe that puppets are for children. And so we get stuck on projects like Pride and Prejudice with Miss Piggy, because we don't know who the target audience is, which is really important for marketing in America, who is the target audience? And so Pride and Prejudice is a little erudite for the average child and and Miss Piggy is too childlike for the average erudite. So you're kind of stuck there. But I woudl watch it!
Erin Branham:Well, and that was another thing.
Karen Foglesong:I was just saying. I would watch it. I don't know why they don't, like, I'm explaining why they won't do it, but I also am like Why won't you do this? You have enough genre bending folks that you should be able to see that there's a small market for it, a solid one.
Erin Branham:Definitely there was for the Muppet movies, they did really well and so much so that like say we continue to produce them. It was an interesting turn after Jim Henson's death that Brian Henson started adapting - his son who took over the company - started adapting classics like Treasure Island and Christmas Carol using the Muppets which was pretty inspired. But the movies were really great. And they're always about, you know, this troupe of misfit entertainers, who are just looking for a gig, right? Like they're just trying to do a show. They really want to do the first, you know, the first Muppet Movie, it's just them go into Hollywood so that they can make a movie and then they're like, trying to do journalism. That's the Great Muppet Caper, and then they're trying to get on Broadway, which is Muppets take Manhattan. So it's just always this kind of troupe of going around trying to put on a show, which I think is so much fun.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, one of them I think, was I think it's the Broadway I think it's the takes Manhattan where they're trying to get the meeting with the producer and they won't meet them. And so they find out that they're allergic to chicken feathers. So they stick one of Gonzos chicken ladies in front
Erin Branham:They try to torture him with his allergies of a fan. until he says yes.
Karen Foglesong:The end of The Muppet Movie has always been an inspiration - I mean the whole movie, but they say life's, it's in the very last verse of the song, "life's like a movie, write your own ending. Keep believing, keep pretending. We've done just what we've set out to do. Thanks to the lovers, the dreamers and you". Right? it like chokes me up. Even just saying it. Sorry. Yeah, I can't even pretend to sing it for you. But it's right, right. Why we thought that this was a good topic, though, is because the Muppets, Jim Henson, the Muppets, and storytelling, these things are all mythic qualities, right. Jim Henson's life, the fact that he kept believing and kept pretending. And this is what we're telling you guys to do to keep believing and pretending. And this is what the Muppets do. They keep pretending and believing until the thing happens until they see it manifest. Right?
Erin Branham:That's a good point as you say - we're talking about this because it does present a sort of a philosophy a kind of mythology of of belief, and mythology of hope, of experimentation, of play from everything it says part of the genius of Jim Henson was that he always made it fun to do the work. And in fact, I just found the quote that I am going to put up in my office. From Jim Henson, "The only way the magic works is by hard work. But hard work can be fun".
Karen Foglesong:Oh, I want to - that's great.
Erin Branham:And that, like, I would honestly - isn't that good?
Karen Foglesong:Yes!
Erin Branham:I would honestly say that is a part of my mythology. Like as a young person I fought against hard work. I just generally didn't want to do it. And somewhere along the line, I tipped over and was like, oh, no, this is like really satisfying. And can be playful and can be full of joy and can be full of creativity. And when you do that the work is it's hard work. But it's fun and you do stuff you create these amazing things that can be shared, and absolutely part of my life philosophy, but I think that crystalized it and I'm gonna have to put it up.
Karen Foglesong:I want to put that up in my office too. That'd be great. Because that's true about every like any type of entertaining or presenting to the public is there all this background work that happens before the public sees anything. That's the magic.
Erin Branham:Definitely. That's the magic. Exactly the magic store, which is what -and Henson always had a sense of that. I think that was that was the interesting thing to me that he fell into puppets. And that puppets had the exact magical quality that matched what he did. Yes. And, and what was happening in him as a creator. And he even said, and one of the, in the documentary said, I was interested but in art and entertainment, and silliness, and, and puppets, just they let me do all of that. Yeah, at the same time, so it was really and then what we're up to the part of his career where you get into to the Muppet show finishes, he does Fraggle Rock, which is a much more - it was aimed at children
Karen Foglesong:Time for Fraggle Rock!
Erin Branham:But it was a much more consciously philosophical, it was about interconnectedness and community and understanding that we needed each other even when you don't, you know, sort of how you navigate it when you have different groups of people who are interconnected. And some understand that and some don't, which is a really interesting thing.
Karen Foglesong:You can't say Fraggle rocks without talking about the All Knowing trash heap. Sorry (laughs)
Erin Branham:Talk about it!
Karen Foglesong:Just I've always thought it was brilliant, because of course, the trash heap knows all, that's where we throw all of our trash. It knows everything. I thought it was fabulous turned into a prophetic thing.
Erin Branham:Definitely.
Karen Foglesong:Okay, go on, then after Fraggle Rock.
Erin Branham:He starts getting into some of his more experimental material. And for instance, he makes The Dark Crystal. Somebody described it as that there was all of this silliness and fun on the front, but that his creativity has this cavernous aspect behind all of that, that there was just so much more that he started reaching for in the mid to late 80s, in which he starts doing the Dark Crystal and I just heard the most heartbreaking story that when he first screening The Dark Crystal for the executives of the movie studio, they just got up and walked out. They didn't say a word.
Karen Foglesong:That's just how dumb they can be.
Erin Branham:And then he just got up and left. Well, and he talked about it that, that, you know, they they were expecting the Muppets, and they got the Dark Crystal. They were you know, he had been pigeon holed as doing a certain kind of a thing and doing it really well. And they thought it was going to be more of that. So when he is an artist wanted to go a different direction. It's Hollywood, right? Yeah,
Karen Foglesong:Hollywood is scared of the new.
Erin Branham:We're not here to patronize. Yeah, we're not here to patronize artists and creativity. We're here to make money. And nobody knows what that is. And all that because the dark - you want to talk about the Dark Crystal. Your favorite.
Karen Foglesong:It's part of my personal mythology. Because this is the Dark Crystal deals with the mythology that light and dark can't exist without one another, that they are inextricably tied together. And I love that idea. I love that idea. You can't have one without the other. It's a whole. And I love the Dark Crystal because it took three puppeteers to work a single Skesis, and they made it work! Like I love the Dark Crystal because Jim Henson pushed through with his dream and made it happen. And it exists. And I mean, I don't know. Olga is just a beautiful creature. She's watching the planets turn and shift and the conjunction. I don't know I could go on in tangents. Erin, direct me what to say about The Dark Crystal.
Erin Branham:That's okay. Now, what was interesting about sort of how it was created was that he was very enchanted by the works of the artist Brian Froud.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. Oh, yeah. If belongs.
Erin Branham:And wanted to bring that to life into a three dimensional world. And it was interesting because I saw an and it because I went see it in the movie theater interview with him talking about it. And he said that he wanted this the whole thing to emerge from this visual world. That was where he started was I'm going to create a world and then I'm going to come up with a story that goes into that world. And I think you could feel that when you're watching the Dark Crystal. It is, it is about the world building and the story sort of skates along the top of it. I I did not miss a Jim Henson production. I don't think I've ever missed a Jim Henson production that was in the theaters like ever. My entire life. I've seen every single one of them.
Karen Foglesong:I don't think I have either Yeah.
Erin Branham:And it, it was strange and I remember what but I remember being very enchanted by it. I was like, I don't know if I love that. But wow. Like I was very impressed by Henson as an artist that I followed. I would honestly say as a young person, he was probably one of the first people I followed as an artist, like I went whatever that guy does, I want to see it. And wherever he wants to take me, I'm gonna go.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, I'm gonna go with him. I've watched some really bad stuff because Jim Henson was involved with it.
Erin Branham:But Dark Crystal was a dark, was a darker story. Yeah, it's not about being silly or making jokes like the Muppets were. It was a whole other -
Karen Foglesong:Oh, there's a really great quote from the the Dark Crystal. "Of course you don't have wings silly. You're a boy." (laughs) I loved that. it's the gelflings if you know the story, you get the quote, but the gelflings the girls have wings and the boys don't. I used to wear a t shirt that said that had like, wings on the back.
Erin Branham:Very cute. And then after that he did Labyrinth, which also was not a hit when it came out, however, it is quite a cult favorite. In Gen X many, many, many people have talked about their sexual awakening, their queer awakening happening thanks to David Bowie's Goblin King.
Karen Foglesong:I didn't even know who David Bowie was. Until I saw Labyrinth.
Erin Branham:That was one of my first Yeah, so it's a it was one of my first exposures to Bowie. For real probably one of the most I remember of him. I mean, I knew his m- some of his music, but of him as an actor, which he was quite frequently. And I wouldn't say I really want to give it up to all the actors who work with the with the Muppets. They commit, man, they really commit. That's one of the reasons why we love them up at Christmas, Carol, because Michael Caine is such an actor's actor that every single second it doesn't matter who he's talking to. He is so there he is completely embodied in it. And David Bowie was like, yes, motherfucker, I am the Goblin King. And I am sexy. And I am weird. And I belong right here with these puppets like (laughs)
Karen Foglesong:And I love at the end of that movie, where he's in the ballroom scene with the young woman. And he says, I will give you everything that you desire, all you have to do is obey me. And she can't do that. Like, that is such a beautiful mythic moment, because there's so many people or systems, or beliefs that will demand that of you. And whether or not you give in to that is totally a personal choice. Nobody can make it for you. Nobody's gonna live it for you. Yeah, so I always love that moment.
Erin Branham:And it's significant that in that story, Sarah, right. The main character's name Yeah, Sarah says no, and in fact, makes the sacrifice the whole story revolves around the fact that she doesn't want to take care of her. She's having like a petulant adolescent moment, and she doesn't want to take care of her baby brother, right? And then he gets stolen by the Goblin King. And she has to go into the labyrinth to save him and to make that sacrifice. And it's hard because the Goblin King is saying, like, I'll take care of your baby brother.
Karen Foglesong:Like, I'm a goblin here with me. And
Erin Branham:she Yeah, and she does the grown up thing. And it and as you say, says no, I will not just submit I'm going to be an independent, fully embodied adult on my own with an individual will. And that's also part of what is fascinating about Henson is if you do dig past a lot of the silliness and the this and the that there is always this kind of core message of be who you are, and have fun with and like it's not it's not an onerous like -
Karen Foglesong:No, it's not onerous. And the whole movie is called Labyrinth, you know and we talk about this idea of bringing yourself in alignment with your shadow and and understanding self right and this is it like going through the labyrinth to face your darkest self and to come out of
Unknown:And complete the nerd, the nerd circle here that we're the labyrinth whole right? And at the beginning of that labyrinth when she first walks into it, there's this tiny worm that says oh, if she had gone that way, like never go that way that way leads straight to the castle to face that awful thing in the middle you know like it's that little voice in the consciousness that's always trying to keep the ego safe, you know is have always even the first time I saw it. I loved that worm. I fell in love that worm. It's so funny. And it's so terrible because she just goes the opposite direction. doing I will mention that Gates McFadden who plays Dr. Beverly
Crusher on Star Trek:The Next Generation was the choreographer for Labyrinth.
Karen Foglesong:Oh no way! So she did the demon dance? That's great. Where they're ripping the heads off each other and throwing them that's that was a great set. Yep, even one of my co workers in my adult life actually visited, I think it was Disney Land and she brought me back one of those fired puppet dolls. And it's all velcro together so I can rip it apart and put its head on its elbow and flip. It's great.
Erin Branham:Very fun. That is fantastic. And the other thing that I love about his work is like we were talking about the way that they you have real people, and the celebrities interacting and the actors commit and everybody's there. There's always this as we talked about, there's always this quality about puppets like that. That's magical and creepy. Yes, that you know, when you see it, that's for everybody, like many people will tell you I have fears of ventriloquist dummies or puppets or dolls. There's that quality of something being a simulation of a living thing, but a puppet even more so because you know, it's meant to be moving and talking. It's meant to have this kind of spirit, animate it and come into it. And there's also that interesting thing about just sort of crossing the imaginary world line with the real world line. There's a great bit in the Jim Henson and philosophy book in an article called Life's like a movie, in the conclusion which is titled Going to Go Back There Someday, in which it says this"John Hodgman in his comedy Almanac, The Areas of My Expertise describes the Muppet Movie like this. This was a movie about puppets who go to Hollywood to become stars as they travel, they frequently consult the script of the movie in order to know what to do next. When they reach Hollywood, they begin making a movie about the movie the viewer just has been watching. The puppets build plywood, some simulacra of props that earlier in the film are presented as real. Then the roof of the soundstage smashes in and a powerful rainbow shines down and obliterates everything, including a plywood imitation of the fake rainbow that had appeared in the first scene. The frog and bear and pig simultaneous simulations panic as their fake real and real fake worlds nearly destroy each other. The puppets then look directly into the camera and instruct the viewer that quote,"life's like a movie, write your own ending.""
Karen Foglesong:That's the that's where the song starts.
Erin Branham:That's where the song starts in that you quoted it early. Yes. And it is. And that
Karen Foglesong:(singing) We've done just what we set out to do.
Erin Branham:Exactly, we did what we just set out to do the magic only works with the hard work. But the hard work is fun. Like there is a very real philosophy, a real mythical message at the core of all of Jim Henson's work and a beautiful one that I really love. And that you really love and we encourage you to love. Go watch the Muppets!
Karen Foglesong:Yes. So that that creepy part that you're talking about, I think has always fascinated me and the line is shifting now that we have robots, you know, with things like Megan and Legend, that kind of idea. But before that it was ventriloquist, like with Goosebumps. And there's another one that uses a ventriloquist dummy. And then there's even The Puppetmaster as a horror movie. Like, where these things come to life and come after us, you know. And as a puppeteer, I can tell you that puppets do do weird things, when nobody's watching. And it can be scary. But over the years of thinking about it, I think it's because the actor is infusing an inanimate object with energy. And that energy has to go somewhere like if, like, I imagine that any Kermit the Frog puppet that Jim Henson actually worked, probably does all kinds of weird anomaly things, like moves on its own, or seemingly so because he was so energetic, and he put so much life into them. And then I would say that that probably as, as long as Kermit doesn't get touched by that puppeteer again, then the energy probably diffuses. Does that make sense? It's not like the puppet has total animate life. But it's been it's this vessel that has been filled with energy from the puppeteer. So I think they're like vestiges of, you know, like, just like, blips of blips of energy. Does that make sense? I don't know. I'm trying to make sense out of the things that I've seen puppets do.
Erin Branham:Hey, the spirit world is all around us and interpenetrating us. Yes. Which is a beautiful thought. If there's some Jim Henson Spirit living in the world, that's a good thing.
Karen Foglesong:Yes. But are we about to end? Is that where we're at?
Erin Branham:I think we're wrapping up.
Karen Foglesong:Just remember, life's like a movie. Write your own ending.
Erin Branham:And thank you for joining us here at Mythic U we will continue to discuss other interesting forms of mythology in the modern world. thank you for joining us at mythic you. We want to hear from you. Please visit our website at mythic u.buzzsprout.com That's MYTHIC u.buzzsprout.com. For more great information on choreographing your own spirituality, leave us a comment and donate if you have the means and the interest. If you'd like to support our work more regularly, please visit our Patreon and become a member of mythic you. Depending on the level at which you join members receive early access to new episodes bonus episodes and free mythic you gifts
