What horrors lurk in our own psyches? Each of us carries an Ego - and our Shadow. Join us as we discuss what the Shadow is, how it operates in each of us, in groups, and in society at large - from the Satanic Panic to Aliens and Darth Vader.
Embracing the Shadow: Carl Jung - Orion Philosophy
Carl Jung and the Shadow: The Ultimate Guide to the Human Dark Side - High Existence
You’re Wrong About Host Sarah Marshall interview - Time Magazine
You’re Wrong About - Satanic Panic - on Spotify
I’m Sorry - LA Times article by Kyle Zirpolo, as told to Debbie Nathan
Investigator’s Guide to Allegations of “Ritual” Child Abuse - National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, 1992 report
The Satanic Panic in the Missouri General Assembly - overview of the Satanic Panic and how it spread to the heartland of the USA
HR Giger: The Monster Maker - YouTube video overview of Giger’s work
Lovecraftian Horror - and the racism at its core - explained - Vox article
We want to hear from you! Please rate and review us wherever you find this podcast. Join our Patreon: patreon.com/yourmythicu
What horrors lurk in our own psyches? Each of us carries an Ego - and our Shadow. Join us as we discuss what the Shadow is, how it operates in each of us, in groups, and in society at large - from the Satanic Panic to Aliens and Darth Vader.
Embracing the Shadow: Carl Jung - Orion Philosophy
Carl Jung and the Shadow: The Ultimate Guide to the Human Dark Side - High Existence
You’re Wrong About Host Sarah Marshall interview - Time Magazine
You’re Wrong About - Satanic Panic - on Spotify
I’m Sorry - LA Times article by Kyle Zirpolo, as told to Debbie Nathan
Investigator’s Guide to Allegations of “Ritual” Child Abuse - National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, 1992 report
The Satanic Panic in the Missouri General Assembly - overview of the Satanic Panic and how it spread to the heartland of the USA
HR Giger: The Monster Maker - YouTube video overview of Giger’s work
Lovecraftian Horror - and the racism at its core - explained - Vox article
We want to hear from you! Please rate and review us wherever you find this podcast. Join our Patreon: patreon.com/yourmythicu
Hello, and welcome back to Mythic U. I'm Erin Branham.
Karen Foglesong:And I'm Karen Fogelsong.
Erin Branham:And today we are talking about the shadow. Karen, what is the shadow?
Karen Foglesong:Ooh, the shadow.
Erin Branham:What does it have to do with the Mythic U?
Karen Foglesong:Well, the shadow is for researching for this episode, I go to look up the shadow. And the shadow is really not easily defined in one way. But in another way, it's very clearly and easily defined. And that is that it's all the stuff that you don't like about yourself, are all the stuff that is not approved of by your social circle, the things that aren't accepted. So like if you live in a culture, where wearing blue jeans is not acceptable, and you feel the need to wear blue jeans, and it's like your secret bad thing, then that gets shoved into your shadow. And I picked a really cheesy one, you know, there's way worse we all have bigger, deeper, darker things like I, I seem very sweet and kind if you meet me, I know very anti-Karen. But there's a true Karen in there, if if I get really aggravated with somebody, like I'll be standing there talking to you trying to make it work out really nicely. But in my head, I am smashing, like hitting things like
Erin Branham:You are demanding to see all the managers,
Karen Foglesong:Yes! all the managers, that's a good way to put it.
Erin Branham:Yeah, when we're talking about this is part of Carl Jung's model of the psyche, where you have the Ego, and the Persona, right, who you pretend to be, and your ego, which is that secret part of yourself that not really so secret part of yourself with the part of yourself that like is the part you hear in your head, and the one that's like, I want this and I want that - it's the Ego. And the shadow is all the stuff that the Ego and the Persona can't deal with. Because it's not acceptable by society, or it is it has been brought up as being immoral. It is, you know, it's the kind of things of like, I never lie. That if you say that, then the liar is your shadow, right? Like everything. When you say that you have to go well, what are you mean, when you say you don't let like, what is it that makes you push that away so hard. And when somebody starts to define that, you know, liars are untrustworthy, and you can't- there often would be a story and there's this liar that I knew one time and hated that person. And they did terrible-. All of that is getting at your shadow.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, that's what I meant by this circle, your social structure, your culture, your religion.
Erin Branham:You know, what Jung's theory also said, is that you give up some of your energy when you deny these parts of yourselves because the truth is, all these are part of being human that they are, you know, we all have, there's a dark side to the universe, and therefore there's a dark side to us, too, right? It just is, and it exists. I always like the example of violence, right? You may go, especially in today's world, I'm not violent. I don't do that, I'm a pacifist, I would never harm somebody physically. And the truth is, is that we're animals, and we're predators. And we, like, that is a part of our human heritage. That's part of the human experience. Do we need to learn how to control our violence? Yes. But many people these days will literally go like I would never, I would never, and are completely out of touch with that part of themselves and that part of experience. And that also means that you're cutting yourself off from some kinds of energies that should be available to you as a human being. You know, we have to, like Jung said that it was all about creating a whole personality, integrating all these things back into your personality, coming to deal with them, which doesn't mean indulging them, doesn't mean like, oh, go be violent. No, but it means you should be in touch with your violent impulses and learn how to cope with them in a healthy manner, so that you don't cut yourself off from that energy, right? Because there's energy that like violence can be a way to defend yourself. You know, anger is a sign of, can be a sign of you have just treated me poorly and I'm not gonna stand for that. Like there's good things in there too,
Karen Foglesong:and knowing yourself and different aspects of your personality in an intimate way will help you to understand whether your feeling of anger is a healthy one, or is a constellation of some other issue that, you know, that could be your shadow.
Erin Branham:Well, and that
Karen Foglesong:Sorry, I couldn't help that one.
Erin Branham:No, but that I think it's there. That was what convinced me to do some shadow work was the very, very true thing that I've seen and experienced for me. Because if you don't deal with your shadow, it will rise up when you least want to deal with it. And it will just mess everything up. Whatever you're doing right then will explode and will be a disaster. And you'll be frustrated. And you'll be all why am I like this? Why am I like this - well you're like this because you're not dealing with your shadow. So -
Karen Foglesong:I sometimes sometimes the shadow can explode in such a way that you don't even understand what the impetus for the explosion is, it's, it seems like things from the outside world are happening that will drive you crazy. But it truly can be traced back to not interacting with your shadow in some way, you have to face it, whether you I mean, I think traditionally, it's been to fight the monster. But I think we're learning to integrate with the monster and understand that, like your example of violence is brilliant, because you don't have to be violent to have the strength of the warrior inside of you. Right. And often, like with Tai Chi, you and I have, both of us have experience with studying Tai Chi. And often the power of that centeredness will dissuade a conflict before it builds.
Erin Branham:Very true. And I think that's one of the things that we were we were just talking about this in preparation for this episode about how you, you're going, like, it is inevitable that you're going to struggle with your shadow, and the things that you have pushed down there, that is going to happen in your life. And there are two ways for that struggle to go. One is for you to run away from it. Which leads to you going Why am I like this? Why am I like this over and over and over again, being chased, and being chased and hiding and going, why is this happening? Why is this happening? No, you don't understand, over and over again. And the other one is where you turn around and you try to cope with it and you try to deal with it, you take, you fight those demons or you go into the darkness and you find your way through it. And that actually leads to - not that you will ever fully, like, your shadow is infinite, and as mysterious as the whole universe, you'll never get all the way to the end of it. But every little bit of it that you reabsorb or come to cope with, like I said, opens these energies to you, especially creativity. My own issue with Shadow things is trying to free that energy for my creativity, that I grew up in a highly hypercritical environment. And that has, that has caused me to be like I'm not as critical probably as I should be. Because I'm not like that. Right? I'm not like that thing that hurt me when I was young. So I have repressed all of that energy. I know that there are things about my creativity that are stifled because of these things that are in my shadow.
Karen Foglesong:The critical judge can definitely, and is often many people's part of their shadow and stops you from the creative impulse before you even get started
Erin Branham:Exactly.
Karen Foglesong:Because of like, she or he or it or because it can be like it can represent itself physically or as aspect and behavior or it can be a mental image in your head. Could be it's a killer, it's really hard. And this can also come up not only personally but in an organization. And we talked about that the other day with where the especially because I've worked in nonprofits and education for a long time, people that are really trying to save people like do good in the world - the shadow gets shoved away really quickly. And those organizations can often, like, devolve into - if you go say you want to go feed the homeless, and you're like, this is a good, all the good people are going to be here. Okay, well, everybody goes with that expectation and then somebody's toes gets stepped on and they don't talk about it because this is a good place and then it just evolves. You know it, it becomes like clique-y and weird and you're like where are all the good people? There they are. They're just their shadow is not being dealt with in the organization. And sometimes even personally, so it can't be dealt with, dealt with in the organization. And if you're in a if you find a really truly successful organization, there's there are they are somehow dealing with that on a daily basis and not letting it build up so that it pops out in angry outburst, you know, at the fundraising potluck and, and one woman just explodes because nobody likes her pastrami or you know, whatever it is.
Erin Branham:No, but I think that's very true, right? That's what happens to a lot of groups is that if you're not sort of fully dealing with everything, then you're repressing some stuff. It's not getting attended to, and eventually it's going to cause some problems. And when is it a healthy place, is it a healthy organization? It is if you can deal with that, or not, look at how many different problems have been created around the, you know, with manufacturing where they knew there was something wrong with the car, or the seatbelt or this or that and they were like shhhhh - was it Volkswagen with the like, they faked the tests on the how much exhaust it was putting off and eventually it was discovered and it's just like, if you don't, and oh my god, I would just have to say for me, like I'm a giant believer, speaking of shadow, this is one thing where I always tell people to own your shadow. I believe in owning your trash TV. And my trash TV is like documentaries about like cults and things that have gone belly up because there's just insane and it's always like, it's fascinating because it's like shadow stuff when you look at this stuff. So just watch the one on Jerry Falwell, Jr. Highly recommend!
Karen Foglesong:Oh my gosh!
Erin Branham:Highly recommend. Because boy, is that a story about the shadow (laughs)
Karen Foglesong:The shadow hides really well behind God.
Erin Branham:Well, and God, God, the Christian God is so light, is so completely on the side of we are right, this is light, this is the one, this is everything that it casts an enormous and very dark shadow.
Karen Foglesong:Right?
Erin Branham:Anytime you get into any belief system that is like we are the light of the world. Watch out for a really dark shadow.
Karen Foglesong:Yes. And that, I mean, you're bringing out a great point. Erin, that's a great metaphor that linking it to actual physical shadow because that's true, the brighter the light, the bigger the shadow, the darker the shadow. And that's just - I mean, can you say that's like a scientific principle with light, you know, like that you can't have light without dark. And so we are following suit as part of the universe, right and -
Erin Branham:100% I'm a - I'm actually big believer in that. Because as you know I'm a pantheist. And that gets into that we were just talking to my daughter this morning about a core pantheistic principle as far as I'm concerned, which is that everything in life functions in waves. And and the wave is the same thing is like the what you're talking about with the light, right, there is going to be a top part and a bottom part there's going to be a crest and a trough and a crest and a trough, And that's just the way it works. Every crest comes with a trough. That is that is a fundamental structure of the universe. And it's just the way things are.
Karen Foglesong:it doesn't go crests crests and trough trough
Erin Branham:No, it does not and you shouldn't expect it to because then you just get messed up in the head. And that's why like I had the problem with people, with religions and things that are - there is a good and there's a bad and you must identify with the good. Because then you're like that's the bright light. This is I can only identify with the bright light, I can never identify with the shadow. And that just makes the Shadow more and more powerful. Because you're not coping with any of that.
Karen Foglesong:Right? It sets it up, it sets up the whole dynamic to be stuffing all that like what, just something little when you show up at the potluck for the church on Sunday and somebody made your grandmother's recipe and it makes you angry instead of dealing with it.
Erin Branham:everybody so sexually repressed. It's not about the casserole!
Karen Foglesong:We're bringing in Freud now.
Erin Branham:Well, I mean, that isn't like that's what I'd say it's Christianity, right, says you have to suppress all your natural impulses.
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:Sexuality being a huge one. And so your sexuality gets pushed into that, pushed into the shadow, and then we're shocked to discover that there's sex scandal after sex scandal after sex scandal within Christian denominations.
Karen Foglesong:Right.
Erin Branham:That's how it works.
Karen Foglesong:That's how it works.
Erin Branham:I recently have read a couple books on the Satanic Panic, largely because I'm gonna plug another podcaster who's a podcaster who sort of inspired me to give this a shot, which is Sarah Marshall, who does the You're Wrong About podcast and You Are Good podcasts. And You're Wrong About starts with the Satanic Panic, which is a particular interest of hers. The whole podcast is about debunk, debunking moral panics. And one of the interesting things that this led me to discover - sort of that was my entry point down the rabbit hole and then I read a couple of books, is that the Satanic Panic followed hard upon the discovery in the 1970s, that child sexual abuse exists. That-
Karen Foglesong:Duh, duh, dunnn!
Erin Branham:It was not societally in America, in Canada, I think in Europe as well, it was not recognized that that could happen that that, that that, that just wasn't recognized. And the discovery of that in the 70s, there came to be an awareness that this was not only that it happened but that it happened commonly, all over the place. There were no barriers on it whatsoever. It wasn't a problem of a particular class or group of people or anything, it was across the board. And that it largely happened within the home. It largely happened by people that the children knew and trusted. And there, there was a guy who did a whole governmental examination. And submitted this report to the government agencies to be like, This is what happened during the Satanic Panic. Which if you don't know what the Satanic Panic is, it is where a whole bunch of people went to jail or were no - some went to jail, but some were just prosecuted for the idea that there was all this like satanic ritual abuse happening amongst children at daycares, at preschools. And it was a huge case here in Los Angeles, the McMartin preschool trial, and these people's lives were just completely ruined. And the kids testified and said, things that just were not true. And that was one of the kids actually wrote an article in the LA Times saying, I'm sorry, now that he's grown and trying to explain what happened, it was just this complete insanity. And this guy wrote the the government's report said, basically, what happened is, people could not cope with the reality, the real understanding that yes, Sexual, Child Sexual Abuse happens. And it largely happens amongst people that the children know. And so they had to cast it out. That it cast it out in the world and put it somewhere out there as a way of sort of coming to grips with the whole situation. And so that was where this bizarro belief manifests itself. And it happened in a lot of different places. It happened in a couple places in Canada, happened all over the United States that all of a sudden, all these people were like my pre-, it's happening in my preschool too. And it was just bonkers.
Karen Foglesong:I had a class with a teacher that physically, I mean, we still had our clothes on, but molested every female student he came in contact with, and all of us reported it. And and it - you guys must be wrong, you must be imagining it. You must be, you know, you just - they can't face it. That's the
Erin Branham:Exactly. And that's what's interesting about shadow. what happened there because it went from we never ever believe the children. Right? Children just make stuff up. They say silly things. So when they come to you and say so and so touched me in this place, or that place or made me do this. You go - what are you sayin'? like kids? What's up with kids just makes, making stuff up. So what that was the flip that happened there was from going from never believing the kids to always believe in the kids no matter what they said.
Karen Foglesong:And now it's flipped the other way.
Erin Branham:And now you end up well, I mean, I do think it has come we've come finally to cope with some of this and understand like, it's common knowledge now that yes, child sexual abuse happens. And it happens amongst people that are nearest to the children. It's like 90% of the time or something crazy like that, that it's going to be somebody the kid knows, not the lecherous guy out on the street who grabs the kid or offers them candy to get in the car. That's not how it happens.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, that's part of the myth to put it out there.
Erin Branham:Exactly. That shoves it out there. And you see the same thing happening now with Q Anon, where it's conflicts that like, we know that there's actual pedophilia happening and bad things happening and child pornography and child sex trafficking happening all over the place. And we have this whole group of people who are like, no, it's Tom Hanks.
Karen Foglesong:Right?
Erin Branham:That's the pedophile you need to worry about. It's Biden. It's Hillary Clinton, and they're, you know, they're Soros. And they're the ones who are eating the babies. And it's like, Can we do something about the real problem, please?
Karen Foglesong:Yep, but just just for a minute focus on
Erin Branham:that that's a way, right as a way of pushing it out. We've pushing it out because those same people are the people are like, America is the greatest country in the world. It's never done anything wrong. All those stories about the Native Americans are just lies or something. Like I don't know what they're thinking these days, right? Someboady said in the election, they were like, it's wrong and inaccurate to teach that this country was based on stealing land. What?
Karen Foglesong:Well, because they probably were, what like a 10th generation person that worked hard and bought some land. And so they don't, they're not connected to the land being stolen. They don't even know that reality.
Erin Branham:Maybe so but wow. But yeah, so again, this was yes. When we throw that stuff out of there, that is not us. That's the shadow those are the Shadow Lands.
Karen Foglesong:Shadow.
Erin Branham:And not only does, right like, individuals and organizations have shadows. Society has shadows like the Satanic Panic, right, Satan? Yeah, the fear of Satan. Satan is a great example of like a societal - because it's the monsters right? It's our monsters. That yes, it might be those things.
Karen Foglesong:My favorite was what's his face Ozzy Osbourne biting the heads off of bats in the 80s. I was like, oh, oh, no. And the kid, there was a kid sadly, that committed suicide, but they found an Ozzy Osbourne record playing on the record player, right? We're dating ourselves, the record player, the
Erin Branham:record player and well, the Ozzy Osbourne record honestly.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. Right. And, well, you know, so there's some kids that listen to Ozzy today, I've discovered but the record anyway, so that's what kicked off the labeling of PG and all that for the entertainment industry. And that was connected to the Satanic Panic. Excuse me. It was it was Satanism. Yeah.
Erin Branham:That was one of the really interesting things that was in the book, I read the My Sweet Satan, and it was all about the occult and Satan. And it did a whole big thing about you know, metal and Judas Priest and Black Sabbath. I mean, right. Those are very direct references to satanic things.
Karen Foglesong:Right.
Erin Branham:So it's definitely true, but all the monsters right, we have how many monsters? So in preparation for this, I did a couple of things. I had just finished listening to Men, Women and Chainsaws, which is about which very interesting, like gender and slasher films or gender and horror films. And it's a very fascinating look at sort of how people identify with other genders because you get to the final girl and, right, and then everybody sort of identifies with her. And how that flies in the face of the idea the Hollywood idea that men and young men in particular cannot identify with a female protagonist. Like that whole book is a way of saying, yes, they can, have you seen a slasher film? But it's very valid. Don't get me wrong. It's
Karen Foglesong:Right? very literary and scholarly, and it's marvelous. But Dead Blondes and Bad Mothers. That's it, Dead Blondes and Bad Mothers: Monstrosity, Patriarchy and the Fear of Female Power. That's quite a title.
Erin Branham:It is. So it's talking about how femininity and femaleness have been made monstrous in our culture, because we definitely have, right, we're a patriarchal culture. So that means that the light that's shining is male superiority and the shadow is female superiority. And well in our culture has a deep and abiding terror of female power.
Karen Foglesong:Of women.
Erin Branham:Right? If we did not we would have elected Hillary Clinton and we wouldn't be in this mess today. Although the election was last night. It wasn't that bad.
Karen Foglesong:Sphere of women, Lilith and Lucy are some of the ones that you mentioned here. And your research - the Lilith story is so fascinating to me. And we still can't even define her. We still, some people talk about her as Adam's first wife. But she goes back even further than that. There's evidence that she was the like the gray matter between Ashtoreth and Yahweh, like the middle, right, you know, she was able to bring together the duality until we dethroned her.
Erin Branham:Well, but that goes right, that goes back. You've done some study in that area in those areas of that in the West, at least certain parts of Europe. There were long, deep, deep, deep ancient roots to a mother goddess of many different faces and names around that era, and then when various invaders came in, they assimilated those Goddesses into their pantheons and always put them in a box, right? Like Hera and Athena, and Aphrodite. These are very, very ancient goddesses when you get when you go past Roman and ancient Greek, and but as the Greek culture and as the Roman culture took over these cultures that had them, they assimilated them into you know, so Athena, who's a warrior goddess becomes the daughter of Zeus.
Karen Foglesong:Right? She still gets to be a warrior goddess, but she's in the service of
Erin Branham:right and she is and she has to impugn her femininity, right? She has to say, I will be a virgin. I will never touch a man, I will not I will not be a full female. Right? That's so Greek. That's so freakin Ancient Greeks.
Karen Foglesong:But there's also the Yes, ancient Greeks. And I was gonna mention this earlier with the shadow too, there's also this innate need to separate ourselves from the rest of the world, because we're the elite. And this is the Greek also. So you separate yourself from the beast, so you don't lust after.
Erin Branham:Definitely. That's a really good point. In the in the West, there was, you know, the ancient Greeks. Okay. True Confessions here. I worked for many years at the Getty Villa, where, which is a collection of ancient Greek and ancient Roman statues. And I would actually have people pull me aside, looking at these beautiful ancient Greek statues, and they would say, in a deep whisper, are those anatomically correct? And I always knew what they meant. But it was fun. So I would say What do you mean? And they would say, Well, you know, their penises just seem a little small. And so it was standard for me to give the whole, this whole spiel. Ahem, one. They're probably not really that small. Our culture has an obsession with giant penises. Two, Yes. In ancient Greece, that actually meant something, which that meant that your mind, your rational human mind, could subdue and was stronger than your base, sexual impulses. Like that's also why they're always limp. So if you want to see erect penises, those are on centaurs and satyrs. Which are animals, right? They're beastial. Yeah, exactly. So that was like a very conscious thing to have the smaller but to represent these, you know, it'd be like a big, big Mighty Hercules and then a little willie. And then that blew people's minds from the modern world, you would watch like I would watch people have conversations that are supposed to be that small, I don't know. And it's, it's such a prejudice of our culture. Right? That that was upsetting. Like, it would literally be upsetting to people. And like, you're supposed to be Hercules. Right? Why don't you have a big honkin dick?
Karen Foglesong:This so bizarre to be like, I've never I've never even contemplated that,
Erin Branham:like, oh, people do. Let me tell you.
Karen Foglesong:I believe you. I believe you. Absolutely. And it's a great example to have that need to conquer the beastial. And in our culture, the the kind of reverse of it, that you kind of take advantage of the beast in secret in certain ways.
Erin Branham:Definitely. Okay. Speaking of monsters, I in the Dead Blondes and Bad Mothers, I've just gotten to a point where they're talking about Mary Shelley and Frankenstein, right. Okay, Frankenstein's monster, who's a classic deep and abiding monster of modern society. Right? He is the - because he is this creation of science. That's part of the reason why he's still so relevant to us. And then it's just- it's a great story. And if you ever the original, it's this pitiable tale about this poor creature who's born at the world, didn't ask to be born into the world and everybody hates him. That's a very primal tale. And, and what happens when everybody hates a poor innocent creature that didn't really do anything? It gets mad.
Karen Foglesong:we? Oh, wait, I thought you were gonna say we crucify it. Forget it,
Erin Branham:Well, it gets mad first and then we burn it.
Karen Foglesong:Okay.
Erin Branham:That's exactly what happens but it gets mad and it turns into a monster. Right? It's that there's the transformation of what happens.
Karen Foglesong:There you go. That was perfect.
Erin Branham:Definitely and that just that idea of the monster and and the the interesting interplay then there is like between the creature and the Doctor who created him, right. That's a long running debate who's actually the monster in that story.
Karen Foglesong:Right? Yes, the guy that's sewing dead bodies together or the soul that just got, or the anti-soul - I think that's still up for debate too, that just got sucked into the situation.
Erin Branham:I it's an interesting thing if you look at, if you look at Frankenstein the 1931 Universal picture and I know this because of Sarah Marshalls You Are Good podcast which recently did Frankenstein and Young Frankenstein. And I'm talking about them is that in the original 1931 Frankenstein, Victor Frankenstein, the doctor, he gets a happy ending after the monster is, you know burned out of the mill and the, with the people with the pitchforks and all of that, he gets to just be like, Well, my wasn't that an adventure? And you know, goes off back to his luxurious castle.
Karen Foglesong:Well, that's, you know, that's still in the era too of boys will be boys. You know? It was like, look at him...
Erin Branham:Definitely, right? 1930s It was very like, man over nature, the ultimate theme is science. Like, that's gonna work out for us one day.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. Right, someday. We just got to get it right.
Erin Branham:Speaking of Dead Blondes and Bad Mothers, I haven't gotten to this part yet. But at some point, it's going to take on the T Rex from Jurassic Park, which I just think is awesome. As a symbol of monstrous female.
Karen Foglesong:Wow. You know, I haven't really thought about that. But once I, once you put this up, this information up. Yeah, it's true. The TRex is always a female.
Erin Branham:And it's a it's a direct line from Frankenstein, right? Like the Jurassic Park is basically a Frankenstein story, right? You get down to the core of it resurrecting dead things that shouldn't be here. I'm dying to get the part where they talk about the T Rex and that was actually something that always annoyed - Okay, I'm gonna get really - that it really annoyed me about the book, Jurassic Park, which is that they are just finished telling Alan Grant and Ellie Sattler that their, all of the dinosaurs are female. They're all female. We made them that way. And then the very next line is, but some of them we call "he" because it just seems right - like the T Rex. That's a "he". And I was like, Oh, I'm sorry, the 30 storey tall monster from another time is not scary enough if it's a female? What?!?
Karen Foglesong:so I think I've always thought this I think it's just exactly the opposite. We are so afraid of female power, that it cannot be "she". Like -
Erin Branham:It's just too much!
Karen Foglesong:it's just like, the Amazon. So you know, you brought up women as monsters and Greeks. Like I always okay, so I used to teach mythology, mythology in a college right. And I would love to bring up the Amazons and everybody would get really excited and when Wonder Woman came out they were rocking and rolling about how cool the Amazons were. And like you guys realize, right? These are a monster, Amazons are a monster, right? Like, great.
Erin Branham:To the ancient Greeks. Yeah, absolutely, just the worst thing that you could you could possibly think of. They wore pants! Ancient Greece didn't even like men that wore pants. They definitely didn't like women that wore pants.
Karen Foglesong:No, and it makes sense. If the men are trying to control themselves and their their penile reactions to a woman are so important to them, then the woman does become a demon. You know, like the, it's the thing you can't control that is mucking up your - you would be a great philosopher, if only you could control that thing.
Erin Branham:Well, that's a good point. Because there you go back to the shadow. A lot of times what is in our shadow are our impulses we don't feel like we have good control over. There's a real - there's a real group of the shadow, and monsters and chaos. Right, those things sort of coming together. One of the other things part of what brought this up was I've gotten into the weirdest habit of just like watching all kinds of weird monster movies on Saturdays, when I cook for my family, I just like will set up my iPad, and you know, lay out all my vegetables to chop and I will watch things like you know, Predator and the new Prey. And I went back and watched a whole bunch of the Godzilla movies. And then I got very obsessed with the Godzilla and the kaiju. And all of this and just the whole concept of that was just so fascinating, because there's part of it that feels to me like I don't quite get it in some ways, but I'm starting to understand it where we found this great quote that was about about Godzilla is supposed to be an atomic monster that smashes cities. The original was released in 1954, which was only nine years after the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yeah, and what and Tomoyuki Takenaka, one of the creators said Godzilla is the son of the atomic bomb. He is a nightmare created out of the darkness of the human soul. He is the sacred beast of the apocalypse.
Karen Foglesong:Yes!
Erin Branham:Like YEEAHHH, that's, there's power, power in the shadow. Right? And we get into that through stories and mythology. That's why we tell the stories of monsters and there's been an in and we were talking about this, there's an interesting rehabilitation going on. That seems to be us kind of processing some of the our older monsters lately, like romantic vampires, and romantic werewolves, and all those let's make our monsters sexy and all that kind of good stuff.
Karen Foglesong:I can't even remember their names. But are you for the vampire? Are you for the werewolf?
Erin Branham:Right!
Karen Foglesong:That was the big thing. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. What? what? I was like, No, you can't do that. We need these stories. They're serving a function and you've just taken all the meat out of the story.
Erin Branham:Do you mean the romantic sparkly vampire you think lost something?
Karen Foglesong:Oh. Well, I mean, maybe not. Maybe it's a truthful expression of a monster in our capitalistic reality that there's sparkly looking cool dude. That's really sucking your soul. You know? Like, I maybe it's true. It's more true. Yeah, at the time. It didn't work for me. That's like, No, you're not supposed to go home with the vampire.
Erin Branham:Actually, the favorite thing from that from the Twilight era that I ever saw was a colleague of mine at work who wore a t shirt that said, "-and then Buffy staked Edward. The end."
Karen Foglesong:Oh, I so would have bought that shirt. I so would have bought that shirt.
Erin Branham:Well Buffy is the example. Right, Buffy is also an example of let's flip the old story, right? Instead of the pretty girl running from the monsters, pretty girl chases the monsters. It also has romantic vampires. Right? Their romantic vampires split off and did his own whole own series and is still like in a million TV shows that dude, he's never going away.
Karen Foglesong:People love. Yeah. Yeah, he's never going away. People have named their children after characters that he's played.
Erin Branham:Really? I believe that. I bet he has. I mean, if David Hasselhoff had a continuing fan base, I'm sure David Borneaz has one. Yes. I watched Angel back in the day.
Karen Foglesong:I don't - I still watch Angel occasionally, right? You're saying your secret like Telly, trash TV television. Right. But it's all like I love Supernatural. My thing are aliens. I love the Alien series, and the like, the creepier, the like. And I think the insectoid alien is the thing that we're really the most afraid of right now. Because science still hasn't explained them to us. You know, like, they're still that's a place that's safe to project the shadow onto. So we just have a giant bugs. Stranger Things the the creature is connected to a giant, like spider thing. You know?
Erin Branham:Definitely
Karen Foglesong:Spoiler alert. If you're just tuning in to that one.
Erin Branham:It's been out for a while. I think we're clear on that. Have you seen Nope? Oh, I highly recommend it. It ends up being an alien story, but it's quite unusual.
Karen Foglesong:Oh, I think I saw the advertisement for that. Yeah, I'll check that out. Okay.
Erin Branham:Highly recommend. You'll like it. It's very - it's a masterful film. The other one I think of around insectoids is certainly Alien at - the you know, Alien but that was like - HR Giger was on another level. It wasn't just bugs.
Karen Foglesong:No. Giger. I mean, that's a great name to bring in. Because Giger was channeling the shadow. I think for a generation, like acting as the artist in that way. It wasn't the only one to embody Shadow, but he definitely was,
Erin Branham:Yeah, embodying some shadow stuff. Which brings us back around - we, in our original note-taking on this, we had gotten all the way around to Lovecraft and Cthulhu and the truly - the monstrous that, that's a level of monster in our society that is the monster that is so different that to look upon it drives you insane. Like that's
Karen Foglesong:Right?
Erin Branham:That's go- hat goes back to Lovecraft. And that is because Lovecraft was a hideous, horrible racist, who looked upon everybody who was not exactly like him and went Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!
Karen Foglesong:I knew he hated everybody.
Erin Branham:He hated everybody.
Karen Foglesong:He hated women, he hated people of color, he hated - if you I think, well no, I'm not saying that, okay. He hated everybody.
Erin Branham:He hated everybody. Yeah, he was deeply troubled soul who, who wrote racist things and did all that stuff. And you know, his horror at the reality is translated into his horror writings, which really are about the alien. I mean, it's a fascinating cause - Well, they call it cosmic horror. It's a fascinating concept.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, he was a student of mythology.
Erin Branham:Yeah, he does how far can you go?
Karen Foglesong:Like Tolkien, he was a student of classical mythology. And he was trying to create a mythic reality, like, with fiction. And if you are a student of mythology, his stuff is horrifying, like this. The ritual indicators in his work are horrifying. But the- I mean, nowadays, I don't even understand how the kids went back and picked it up. It's so dry. It's so I mean, you have to be a student of mythology to really get it, I think.
Erin Branham:Maybe, but it does have some of the kind of charm of Tolkein. I've read, like I was introduced to Lovecraft when I was like, 19. And I tried to read it. And I was like, ah, because it's out there in terms of just like reading material. And there wasn't for a number of years that I tried another short story and, and understood why the guy is still talked about. The story was The Color Out of Space. And I had - it drew like, I wasn't able to walk away from it, in the time that I read it. It's not very long, but it was, we were in the early days of the internet, and I had just looked it up, you know, like on my lunch break and I was 20 minutes late back to lunch because I had to finish it and I was on the edge of my seat and I've never experienced such dread in my life as reading that story, and nothing happens in that story. It doesn't matter. It has his prose, it's the way he has framing the world that is just so alienating and so dreadful.
Karen Foglesong:Like you said he's describing his own perception of the world so he's very clear and concise with that it is very alienating and dread inspiring. It's scary.
Erin Branham:Yeah, definitely that's a guy that I feel like was sort of enmeshed in the shadow, like couldn't get away from it, right, was - had it in every point of view that he looked at the world - there it was, there it was, there it was. He was, like, afraid of everything. And yeah, that kind of total alienness - and that's what I think that like Giger gets at. Giger gets at and that's why Giger's stuff, who is the designer of the of alien of the Alien id Alien and Aliens and Alien Resurrection and all of those movies. Is that they are horrifying. And beautiful. Yes. Right. Like they managed to be both at the same time. There are some
Karen Foglesong:of them are better at that than others. But yes, yeah. Yeah,
Erin Branham:but he but like if you go look at a book of his works of art - that is like looking at like Francis Bacon, right? Like it is some weird stuff that will make you go - AHhh!
Karen Foglesong:They're in Aliens with the s, the two. There's this scene where Sigourney Weaver's character faces off against the alien mother and they each have a baby. They protecting their baby and there's no language. They can't communicate through language. It is all physical, mommy language like archetypal language, and it is still to this day I get chills thinking about it is one of the choreography. It makes the whole movie like is you don't mess with mommy. Like if you want to see a real monster, you break mommy down until she is at her very last ounce of strength to protect a child and you will be afraid.
Erin Branham:That's an interesting point. Because that goes back that circles back to our Dead Blondes and Bad Mothers and the monstrous female, that what you just said made me think of this. What is the one thing that you were taught? I said, Karen and I both grew up around the Mississippi River, Memphis, northern Mississippi area. What was the one thing you were taught about hiking in the woods if you approached an animal or saw an animal
Karen Foglesong:Don't mess with mommies.
Erin Branham:Like, in the woods there was nothing that was more impressed upon every child was I think it was more about that if you see a baby animal - that was it. Do not approach. That was the story I was told if you see a baby animal and you think Oh, that's cute, do not approach because somewhere nearby Is, is that baby's mother and if she sees you touching her baby, things are not gonna go well for you. Yeah, I heard that over and I heard real stories about that too, right? Like we grew up with a bunch of rednecks. Somewhere, everybody had a cousin who went up to that cute little baby animal and got his ass tore up by a bobcat.
Karen Foglesong:Yes, or bit a bunch of times by a baby snake or, well, that's not the mommy, sorry, that's a different - that's just stupid rednecks.
Erin Branham:That's a different level of dumb.
Karen Foglesong:And I say that because they're my relatives right? I don't - there's no prejudice there. I love them.
Erin Branham:So I think we're getting to the end of our discussion of shadows and monsters. I wanted to say this though. I'm talking about in the sort of rehabilitation of monsters and in I think our general since - the internet has come out in particular, where we can really exchange ideas about stories and things like that the rise of the villain, the love of villains, has really become a thing. When I was, like, when I was young person we were exactly of the Star Wars age level. It you could you could express sort of fear and admiration for Darth Vader, but I don't remember any kid was like, he's my favorite character. If you did that, people would have people would have thought there was something wrong with you. And now like my eldest daughter when she was five, her favorite character was Darth Vader and we thought that was like there was there was a ease about that. And I think it was because there was a lot of conversations online where people, it all of a sudden, people realized that a lot of people like villains. And so it became okay to talk about the fact that you liked the villain or you've identified with the villain or you thought they were really cool in that sort of a way so I was thinking about that. I was thinking about like, who's your favorite villain? Who's your favorite Monster? I'd like to hear is your favorite Monster, Karen, and then we want to hear from all of you. Tell us on our comments. What who's your favorite villain or monster and why? You and your shadow?
Karen Foglesong:I think I've already said mine. Mine is the Alien Queen. Every time.
Erin Branham:You will - Oh, you didn't say it was her? You just said you liked Aliens. You could have been rooting for Sigourney,
Karen Foglesong:I'm always rooting for Sigourney. I love it for all we knew. but the like the fear base, the thing that scares me - Oh, but what really will freak me out if I'm like, a Jaws movie, anything with a shark coming - something like the Megalodon. Oh, my God. And that's, like, talking about shadow - that's deep. That's like the monster in the depth of your psyche kind of imagery. You know. Ahhhhhh!
Erin Branham:My sister actually makes horror movies and has made several of them and has been, studied horror movies in college and all this kind of stuff. Seriously, she was one of the producers of The Grudge and Monster House and a couple other things. And so I picked up a book off her bookshelf not too long ago that was about the core of horror and I was - and it goes all the way back to sort of deep fairy tales and folk tales, and the whole thing, the whole book was just about being eaten. It was just about the primal terror and horror of being eaten and I and it was it had been written many years ago so like it didn't reference things like Jurassic Park, which definitely got into that, right, this the idea of just something you know what is it? The velociraptors - you're alive when they started to eat you.
Karen Foglesong:Right yeah.
Erin Branham:And I think that the same thing, like the fish and all that, like to this day, like, I'm not interested in swimming in the ocean ever. Just not - just not, I'm like there's things in there for which I am an afternoon snack. No thank No, just no.
Karen Foglesong:That was I remember contemplating that for some time which animal would I want to be eaten by if I had to get eaten. And I decided it was an anaconda because you you know like it just would be the least painless way to die. It would still suck but -
Erin Branham:Definitely so I think that, I think that is interesting that like when you go down to the core core core idea of the monster it gets down to predator-prey, right of just the idea of of being eaten - you go into mythology, right Cronos eat swallowing his children, and all that sort of stuff. And in ancient Greek stuff, right? There's like when they serve like the guy that gets cursed because he served his son to the gods and all that kind of stuff. Yes, yeah, we're even rehabilitating the cannibal. I've been watching the Hannibal TV series. You ever watched that? No, it is no, it is like all about making Hannibal's played by Mads Mikkelsen. It is all about making Hannibal sexy. And it's not just that I mean, I would recommend you look at because it takes - it's very stylized, it is like not really realistic at all. In every single episode, there is a highly artistic serial killer on the loose. I'm like how many of these guys are running around in this universe? It's the, the things that they do with the bodies and the imaginative sort of obsessions of the serial killers is fascinating. And presented in this highly visual and aesthetic style. It is beautiful.
Karen Foglesong:Whoa.
Erin Branham:But it's like, made out of bodies. It's weird.
Karen Foglesong:Perfume. Did you ever read that one?
Erin Branham:Oh, I know that. Yeah,
Karen Foglesong:I can't remember who wrote it. And it's been turned into all kinds of weird stuff. But it was a darkly beautiful book. I couldn't put it down. It was fascinating, like, using virgins to make the most pristine smell.
Erin Branham:Yeah. He's gonna get in there that's getting deep, deep into the shadow stuff there.
Karen Foglesong:But it's extrapolating these primal fears that you're talking about, the more complicated that our relationships in our culture gets, the more the shadow needs to be able to work things out. The more complicated the shadow will get because the or the bigger the monster will get because of the complication how difficult it is for us to deal
Erin Branham:Yeah, well, and again, I think the also the with. internet and the ability of us to share- one of the things the internet did for me as an Internet nerd was it what it did was it opened up the interior space of a lot of people. All of a sudden, because you were anonymous, you were able to share more forbidden thoughts basically, that you couldn't that felt awkward to do in person or that was, you know, repressed in your society or whatever, you all of a sudden had a place to do it. I I hear a lot of girls talking these days where they're like, you know, your body does something weird, you just Google it. And I'm astonished. Like I grew up in the 70s and 80s. And like, you had a source for when you had weird things happen with your body? I scoured the library looking for information. And it wasn't there.
Karen Foglesong:No, because we were in the Bible Belt. It had to be Christian.
Erin Branham:Exactly.
Karen Foglesong:It couldn't be actual scientific information about the female body. Oh my god.
Erin Branham:Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So yeah, I that so in that way, there's been this way of turning out the interior space of a lot of people and I think that has surfaced a lot of not just monsters but complex relationships to monsters, complex relationships to shadows. All of a sudden like say we get we've had all these rehabilitation of monsters because somebody out there wrote that story. You know, somebody out there with like the explosion of fanfiction, somebody said, Look, man, my favorite character is the baddest guy in town. I'm gonna write the story from his point of view, or her point of view. Right? Um, see what it's like.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. Because I mean, really, what the? I think that the thing that we're driving at with this discussion is that these monsters help us to deal with our shadow, they are catharsis. They're - even just the fact that they exist, or are an outlet for our society to put its shadow in, to put it in a vessel so that it can be looked at and contained. And you can go home and chatter with your friends. Oh, my god, that scared the crap out of me. No. But that's a way that your psyche is also processing that you face that fear and you're trying to face that fear or you work - still working on it or, you know, so we don't make your monsters too sexy, man. How can you not relate to Maleficent? Or Elphaba? Right, Elphaba is the Wicked Witch.
Erin Branham:Yeah, in Wicked.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, because those are, those are true. And if you've been outcast in our culture, you often alienate with Frankenstein, or the monster.
Erin Branham:The monsters also give us the point, the ability to identify with the alienated.
Karen Foglesong:Yes. And I hope like to ourselves. I hope I've watched enough alien movies that when the aliens come that I will give them a chance. But I will not be just like wow, because they were aliens and I'll catch the signs that they're about to eat me.
Erin Branham:Well, I wish you luck with that. May we all have such luck. Thank you. Thank you everybody for joining us. Let us know about your favorite monsters, villains, and your shadow struggles. See you later.
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