We live in the God gap, when old mythologies are breaking down for many, and new mythologies have yet to emerge. Humans need mythology so much, though, that we'll get quite creative in making things work as mythology - even movies, tv, and book series! This episode we take a look at how participation in fandom meets the needs of some people's souls.
SNL Get a Life skit - William Shatner's famous 1986 Saturday Night Live skit of a Star Trek convention.
Spockanalia - The First Star Trek fanzine StarTrek.com - before the internet, fans shared their love and interest via self-produced magazines filled with original art and writing that ranged from wildly silly to amazingly profound.
Where No Fandom Has Gone Before: Exploring the development of fandom through Star Trek Fanzines - a deep dive into the history of fanzines. Thesis by Jacqueline Danielle Guerrier
Joseph Campbell and the Mythology of Star Wars - Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell discuss how Star Wars fulfills the Hero's Cycle and takes us to mythological realms.
Han shot first controversy - article in The Independent explaining the Han shot first controversy that demonstrates how strongly fans feel about the material they love.
We want to hear from you! Please rate and review us wherever you find this podcast. Join our Patreon: patreon.com/yourmythicu
We live in the God gap, when old mythologies are breaking down for many, and new mythologies have yet to emerge. Humans need mythology so much, though, that we'll get quite creative in making things work as mythology - even movies, tv, and book series! This episode we take a look at how participation in fandom meets the needs of some people's souls.
SNL Get a Life skit - William Shatner's famous 1986 Saturday Night Live skit of a Star Trek convention.
Spockanalia - The First Star Trek fanzine StarTrek.com - before the internet, fans shared their love and interest via self-produced magazines filled with original art and writing that ranged from wildly silly to amazingly profound.
Where No Fandom Has Gone Before: Exploring the development of fandom through Star Trek Fanzines - a deep dive into the history of fanzines. Thesis by Jacqueline Danielle Guerrier
Joseph Campbell and the Mythology of Star Wars - Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell discuss how Star Wars fulfills the Hero's Cycle and takes us to mythological realms.
Han shot first controversy - article in The Independent explaining the Han shot first controversy that demonstrates how strongly fans feel about the material they love.
We want to hear from you! Please rate and review us wherever you find this podcast. Join our Patreon: patreon.com/yourmythicu
Welcome back. So last episode, we introduced archetypes and talked about how mythical symbolism shows up everywhere, literally everywhere, even in your coke commercials. And mythical symbols work because they are signs that point to mythologies. You see the Cross and it evokes the whole story of Jesus's sacrifice and death and what all of that means as mythology.
Erin Branham:Right. And then as you're sort of saying, depending on your orientation to that mythology, if you're Christian or not, then the sight of the Cross affects you in different ways. Although we live in a Christian society, I think this is a lot of what you were talking about in our last episode, that that we absorb a lot of that, even if you're not a Christian, you still get a lot of that Christian symbolism just because of growing up in the United States of America.
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:So you can see the Cross and it can be super meaningful to you or can not at all be meaningful to you, to me and this is one of the fascinating things about mythologies, if it's not active for you, then its symbols are nothing, but if it is active for you, its symbols become living, breathing entities that flood your life with meaning. And that challenge you to go deeper into your life, what your life can mean, and lead on to a deeper experience of life, which is kind of the whole thing that we're sort of pushing on this is like, be in touch with your symbols, know what they are, know your stories, know your mythologies, because that really does lead to a deeper experience of life.
Karen Foglesong:And it and they're affecting you whether you're paying attention or not, like so should pay attention. And I really liked what you said here about the symbols being active for you, that is a really good way of saying that. So So where do you look, if it turns out that the religion you are offered, the religion of your parents or your society doesn't resonate with you,
Erin Branham:right, so this is we've been talking about this in various of our episodes, you can look at other religions. But that can be kind of difficult to get into, because one of the things that makes a living mythology work is that you're immersed in it and its symbols from a very early age, or you're able to completely sort of immerse yourself in it and really get all of that meaning out of that. And then when you're getting into other religions, I've certainly noticed as I've poked around in that, that you can run the risk of sort of getting involved in a very westernized version of religion. And then you sort of stay for a long time, you're like, Wow, this thing is really cool. I'm loving this Buddhist group. And then somewhere along the line, you realize that there's not a great understanding or they have it's sort of like veiled Western(laughs) Western ideas, things like that - big, big bummer.
Karen Foglesong:So that leaves us with like philosophies like existentialism, or what is it? Materialism is a good one.
Erin Branham:Yeah, definitely what are great, are great if you're, you know, thinking about stuff, or we're talking about mythology, right, mythology, you can definitely think about mythologies, but hopefully a mythology like gets you in your gut. Right? It's something that says your heart, it's something that seizes your emotions that the symbols do that. So you know, existentialism, yeah, love some existentialism, but there's not a ton of symbols, to be enriching, with me to be like enriched with meaning in those philosophies. So mythology primarily comes out as I was thinking about this, you tell me if you agree, Karen in two ways, which is stories, and ritual.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:Would you go with that?
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. Because everything else like a pictorial could be a story or pointing to a ritual. Absolutely. Yeah, I would go with that. Yeah.
Erin Branham:And well, that's fair to say art, not just stories, but art. Right.
Karen Foglesong:Well, yeah. Art too but like I said, the art can be depicting the story. So I think it can be included in your two categories there.
Erin Branham:Right. Okay. Very much so.
Karen Foglesong:That's my personal opinion,
Erin Branham:Well exactly, we're all talking about our personal opinions. We're very interested in what hearing what your opinion is about this. So we're talking about stories and rituals, both of which work deeply with these symbols. So that's sort of where mythology has to come at you with some of those tools or I'm not sure it's a mythology - we can have a whole debate about that.
Karen Foglesong:Yes, we could that maybe a future episode, isit a mythology or not? So So where can we find the symbols then as a group, how can we find this immersion?
Erin Branham:Right, so today they are in stories to we have these multiple mythologies, big rambling universes of stories with heroes and villains, sages and syncophants guardians and tempters, themes that explore the human condition, explore the past, the present, the future, there are even ritual spaces where people don the garb of these archetypal figures, reenacting key moments from the narrative and arguing over the meaning of the various texts. You may have guessed, I'm not talking about religions. I'm talking about fandoms.
Karen Foglesong:Okay, you're the fan here. So, what is fandom?
Erin Branham:Would you say? Are you a fan? I mean, you always were saying this is what you're talking about this episode. Well, you're the fan.
Karen Foglesong:Yes, I do. I've always picked on you about being a Trekkie. But really, I think you successfully converted me and I am a Trekkie now. I don't think I can deny that. I'm definitely more of a Trekkie than a Star Wars fan.
Erin Branham:There you go - see now this is where you get into the sects and the denominations. So yes, I am a second generation Trekkie, which means my mom watched the original Star Trek when it aired in the 60s and then raised me on it once it started rerunning in 1973. So I'm born in 1970. By the age of three, literally, it was just on in my house. I went to my first Star Trek fan club meeting, and I was 13. So that was 1983. So this was before any thing else even existed. I think there had been two movies at that point. There had been the the first movie and the Wrath of Khan had been out by this time.
Karen Foglesong:Definitely no movies about how weird Trekkie fans were yet.
Erin Branham:No, no, but people were definitely, by '83 people were definitely aware. It was it was around the time of the famous SNL skit, the Get a Life skit, that was not too long from this period. So I've been to several conventions over the years. I've been active in online trek fandom, since well, since the World Wide Web premiered back in the 90s. Well y'know, what can I tell you? So fandom is this collective of people who really, really love a fictional universe. Trekkies were in some way, the originators of a lot of modern fandom. And it's significant to point out that early Trek fandom, despite the stereotype of the nerdy virgin dude in the Spock ears, was actually largely made up of - it's true, right? That's the stereotype.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:It was actually largely made up of women, many of whom who were lesbians, it was these people who created the letter campaign that saved Star Trek from cancellation in 1967. And it was these people who created the original Star Trek fanzines.
Karen Foglesong:I know that I love Star Trek because of Uhura.
Erin Branham:Uhura, yes, absolutely.
Karen Foglesong:I mean, it sucked that they made her wear the mini dress but still, she was a black woman that was in charge.
Erin Branham:She was there. She was there and she knew what she was doing and she was good at her job. And she could fly the ship. And I loved her to this day, Uhura, Nichelle Nichols, who played the original Uhura passed away not too long ago, like, and I'm still feeling it in my heart.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah,
Erin Branham:Because that's what it is to be a fan! That's what I'm talking about. This is, if it is not fully religious, which I don't think that it is, although there's that kind of stereotype too - it definitely rubs up against some of these things and has some of the characteristics of mythology.
Karen Foglesong:Okay, I dropped a little bit here at the your last thing that you said, you talked about Star Trek fanzines, what the hell is a fanzine?
Erin Branham:So everybody says zines these days, that's the, like, leftover of this. Fanzines started in the 60s and 70s. This was before the internet, and people had to be really creative to share their, like, I don't know what to call them - offerings? These are the original stories that they wrote in the Star Trek universe, the original art that they created, the thoughts and feelings evoked from various episodes, or the whole thing. So they, through snail mail, mind you, because there was nothing else, collected stories, art, commentary into small magazines, which they paid to have copies made of and then distributed. So the most famous of these was actually called Spockanalia. It was created by two women and meant to be a single issue, but it turned into several issues when they were inundated with material after the first issue got around. Now, these were very small print runs, right, like 100 or so at first, because this was before printers. These were literally typed on a typewriter laid out with stencils.
Karen Foglesong:For you young people, that's a keyboard that doesn't have a computer attached to it.
Erin Branham:And run through a mimeograph machine to make these, okay, no, this is not a joke here. And these were like 90 or 100 page long, they corresponded with the creators, they sent them an issue, the first issue and they're like, We love this, and then the, like Gene Roddenberry, and some of the writers and some of the actors wrote to them and shared stuff with them. And it was like a whole thing. So like, this is a period of interaction between audience and creators - that happens regularly now through social media.
Karen Foglesong:Right?
Erin Branham:Right. So but here's where the, like, laying the original tracks was happening. Now to me, what's interesting about this is the
Karen Foglesong:Yes. spontaneous creativity that has come along with this. It wasn't just like, back in the day when TV was first coming out and everyone was like it's melting your brain, it's just passive, you just sit there and take it in and your brain is not working. Well I say fandom puts the lie to that. Because it's about, right? It's not enough to just sit there and take it in. If you're really a fan, you're going to write the poem, write a story, do some art, do something, you're going to do something, even if it's just like sitting there and creating it in your own head, there's this incredibly spontaneous way of wanting to add to the substance of the core set of stories, much as religion has inspired art since forever. And since the onset of modern fandom, which more or less started with Star Trek, this behavior has spread around to a number numerous other sets of stories, Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, although to be fair, there was a set of Lord of the Rings fans that go way, way back, way back to like the 50s and the 60s, and definitely crossover with those original Trekkies, anime, the Marvel Universe and on and on and on and on - now thanks to the internet, every cult series and graphic novel has a dedicated set of fans. And to that set of fans, the specific characters and symbols can begin to take on a kind of mythological significance. So are we talking about like Star Wars weddings or Jedi-ism or?
Erin Branham:Right? Absolutely. So this is where ritual comes in. So people will actually incorporate these things into their major life moments, they will name their children after - definitely their pets. Oh, my God, Star Trek pets on Trek Twitter is just the thing -
Karen Foglesong:Whar really trips me out is that I watch a show called, I have watched a show called Supernatural. And I can't
Erin Branham:Oh, Supernatural has a hefty -
Karen Foglesong:that and Angel from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I have met so many kids named Angeles. And, and the parents are always like, Oh, wow you recognize Yeah, that's where his name is from.
Erin Branham:Definitely. So this is a way starts, you start to go, Okay, well, what's going on here? And people have definitely like, you know, sort of made fun of this or said that there's something trivial about that. And I really do not believe that. I think it is basically the mythological drive in us, that causes us to interact with these stories this way. And if we don't have ancient stories that resonate with us, as many people have issues with today, then you take these newer things. So you can take these, you know, Campbell, Joseph Campbell, the mythologist famously talked about Star Wars and how you needed to go into space in this day and age, because we've explored the whole world. There is no here there be dragons space left, except for outer space. And it's quite important in a mythology that you broach the unknown, because it is about, you know, the challenges we face as human beings. So this is being played out in these different kinds of stories, and people are then reacting to them, people are, are activating them in their own lives, whether they're having a wedding, or doing cosplay, you know, whatever it may be.
Karen Foglesong:Okay, so, all right, I know what a wedding is, what is cosplay.
Erin Branham:So cosplay is where you create a costume for whatever you're a fan of, often a character that has special significance to you, or a specific moment that is meaningful. This is a key aspect, which we're talking about - the original text comes to accrue all this meaning. Which is hilarious when you go and like listen to the production notes or something - I don't get very into the productions of the various things that I'm into, but I am such a long running Star Trek fan that sometimes you run out of stuff to experience, so you go ahead and read the production notes. And considering the meaning that are placed on these to hear about the pressures of them creating these TV series on you know, under the like, you gotta have one out every week. And they're like, Oh, my God, and we just were slapping this together. And we didn't even know, everybody thought it didn't work. And it'll be like one of the best episodes that everybody agrees is in the top 10 of the. And so it's fascinating to think that these things that are run off in this way that they're just like, oh my god, we have to produce something because it's gonna go on TV, and there's an audience waiting, which Karen and I both, as old theater geeks know what that's like - the show's gotta go on, it doesn't matter if it's good or stupid or a prop doesn't work or -
Karen Foglesong:Fake it.
Erin Branham:Fake it, exactly, we just gotta roll. And to think of it happening that way and then people watching it and rewatching it and discussing it and building all of this meaning around it. It's just it becomes huge. Do you remember Do you remember the Han shot first controversy around Star Wars when George Lucas redid
Karen Foglesong:No.
Erin Branham:Oh my god. I remember seeing this everywhere, and I'm not a huge Star Wars fan. I'm just really interested in fandom so I pay attention to- it's fascinating. Yeah, so right, right before the prequels came out. He rereleased the old ones, and he redid a bunch of stuff in it. Right? Remember that?
Karen Foglesong:Oh, well I know about that because he like changed a bunch of scenes
Erin Branham:Right. So that's what I'm talking about. So when you first meet Han Solo, right, and you're in the bar, and the cantina and all that stuff in the bar scene, and Greedo shows up, the bounty hunter who's gonna kill him?
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:Right. And he ends up killing Greedo, because he shoots at him.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:And that- in, in the reworked one, they had Greedo shoot first. So that Han was reacting to him, and oh, my god, people lost their minds. Well, this is where people were saying, George Lucas destroyed my childhood. Because it was important to them that Han was the kind of guy who would shoot first! It was key to his character. And people were like, No, that's not - you messed up the mythology! You did it wrong. What are you doing? It was amazing!
Karen Foglesong:I think I, I think I've messed up because my memory I have Han with his hand on the gun under the table.
Erin Branham:Right. Right. And he shoots from there. And he shoots from there. But now they had added in this bolt from Greedo. So right before he shoots, it even looks really awkward and stupid. And it just-
Karen Foglesong:all the changes, they did look awkward and stupid. Like the thing that bugged me was at the beginning of the movie, when Luke goes out on his own, and he comes back and his parents are in the pit burning. Like when they did the close up of that. I was like, That is not necessary. Why did you just do that? Or they took the guy out that played
Erin Branham:Oh, right. They really didn't need Jabba.
Karen Foglesong:The guy that's after Han Solo - yeah,
Erin Branham:Jabba, they added that.
Karen Foglesong:Jabba? Yeah, it was a dude!
Erin Branham:I know!
Karen Foglesong:And then they added this sluggy thing over the top of him -
Erin Branham:It was weird. A lot of it was weird. So but no, but I mean, like, you can sit there go, oh, this is weird. This is weird. But the thing about Han shooting first was a was upsetting to people on a very visceral level, because he had become a mythic hero who had a certain personality that was socially mediated, right. The fandom had decided that this is
Karen Foglesong:Yes. The Creator. who he is. And this is what it is. And when you go tinker with that, that shows the kind of mythological connection where the creator of this material, is told - you just did that wrong. By the audience.
Erin Branham:The guy who wrote it was told oh, no, what are you doing? Uh uh, wrong, and people just went, I'm not going to. So like I said, that just shows a different level of sort of interaction with these stories than you can say they're just stories, or they're just movies or whatever.
Karen Foglesong:And it also is a good indicator why we say God wrote these mythology stories, because there's nobody to complain to.
Erin Branham:Well, that's an interesting point. So we're also seeing this kind of movement out of the singular creator, because we're starting to see these modern pieces of intellectual property, these franchises, whatever you want to call them, like the these universes, right? The Star Wars universe, the Marvel Universe, the Star Trek universe, whatever. We're starting to see them move away from the idea of the singular creator, to a much larger group, which actually mirrors the way that old mytho-, ancient mythologies were formed. Right? If you gotta like the story of the Trojan War, right, you know, story of the Trojan War.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah.
Erin Branham:Did you ever read?
Karen Foglesong:Yes,
Erin Branham:like the Iliad or any of that stuff?
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. Maybe our audience haven't though, you might want to give him a few pieces. Yeah.
Erin Branham:So the Trojan War was a key myth to ancient So they left that as an offering and then took all Greece. It was the story of Helen of Troy, Helen of Sparta, who was the most beautiful woman in the world, and Aphrodite promises her to this eastern prince from the city of Troy. And so he carries her off, she's already married to the king of Sparta. So all of the Greek kings go to take her back, and they have this gigantic war, on the at the feet of Troy for - it goes on for 10 years, and then it is finally won by the Greeks via a trick, The Trojan horse, which is probably the thing everybody knows. The Trojan horse was they they did, the Greeks couldn't get past the walls of Troy. So they finally pulled this trick where they leave a horse with some dudes inside. The horse was supposed to be - and this is the part that I think gets lost in our knowledge of it - the horse was an offering to the god Poseidon, of whom horse like the horse is one of his symbols. their ships away. So it looked like they had left this offering to the god of the sea and left upon the sea. Right. So they were like here, please let this be easy in the - the Mediterranean was notorious for just destroying ships and all kinds of storms and it was not easy to get across the Mediterranean and those little tiny boats. So they leave that and they take off where they really did was just go hide, and then the Trojans are celebrating that the Greeks were gone. They take the horse, get into the walls, have a big party and fall asleep drunk. And then the Greeks come out and then they just totally destroyed Troy. And it's a very tragic story because, of course, it's a Greek story. And the Greeks never tell happy stories.
Karen Foglesong:Because all life is tragedy.
Erin Branham:But this was - the Trojan War to the ancient Greeks was equivalent to sort of Christianity in the United States today. You knew it, you just knew it. It was everywhere. It was this it was the reference on all of the works of art. It was the right - you knew who Achilles was. It was Achilles, like, there were cults to Achilles, there literally be like a temple to Achilles down the way.
Karen Foglesong:Yes,
Erin Branham:and there would be scenes from the Trojan War on it. And you would have vases with scenes from the Trojan War, and the local bards, who would come around who would like travel around to the different villages and cities would come and they would sing tales of the Trojan War. And in the ancient Greek way, you made up your tales, sort of as you were doing it, but there were these framing devices, these kinds of key phrases that you could pop in there, and then you wove around them your tale. So if you're this traveling Bard, and you're going from one Greek city to the next, and you're going to Sparta, and then you're going to Athens, and then you're going to Corinth, well, if you're in Athens, they don't want to hear about that's the Corinthian heroes of the Trojan War, they want to hear about the Athenian heroes in the Trojan War. Right? So you have the big story of the Trojan War, Achilles and Odysseus and Hector and the big players, and the big tragedians, I can't remember how to say that you guys who wrote tragedies would write the stories that were about like Achilles and Hector and the gods and the big heroes, right? And the Bards would tell the stories of - there are big armies involved, and they would tell the stories of the local heroes who were in the army, right. So in this way, the Trojan War started as this kind of big, big series of stories that all these smaller stories got woven into. So you end up with this giant web of tales. This shows up on all of the Greek art. Again, if you're in Corinth, then you want the Corinthian hero on your vase, and he has stories about him because the Bards have made them up. And so you end up with this giant web of stories. Well, the exact same thing is happening now. Right? You looks at original Star Trek, that was one series. That was it. Few main characters, the little side characters were so few you know, you didn't have anything, but people made up stories about them anyway, that was what people write fanfiction. So they write the stories. Hey, we love Uhura. I'm gonna write a whole story that's about her because there's nothing coming from the creator on that. Alright, so I'm gonna do it. Now. I can't even there's 10, 11 Star Trek series. I'm not even sure anymore.
Karen Foglesong:One of my favorites that I discovered was the 70s cartoon series.
Erin Branham:The animated series!
Karen Foglesong:That is hysterical!
Erin Branham:The animated series is the trippiest thing you will ever see.
Karen Foglesong:It's very 70s. Very 70s.
Erin Branham:The animation is terrible. It's like that. It's like the Superfriends animation.
Karen Foglesong:Yes.
Erin Branham:Right where it's the same plates over and over every time they like Spock and Kirk run. It's the same plates of them running back and forth. And they're like nobody's head moves. Just their arms. It's awful. But the stories are really good. The stories are really good. And they are whacked!
Karen Foglesong:It seems like they could be more creative with it because nobody took it seriously. It's just a cartoon
Erin Branham:Well, not just that it was a cartoon, you could do anything. You didn't have to worry about special effects. You could have aliens - like theres this crazy alien who actually splits into three parts and two of the parts float around and then they come back together and do all that stuff. So they're Oh, they are hoot. I highly recommend taking the intoxicant of your choice and watching a little TAS because let me tell you what, whoever was writing and producing that they were definitely doing some intoxicants.
Karen Foglesong:I would go with that.
Erin Branham:So now you have the same thing where you have this proliferation of it. I mean, look at what's happening in Star Wars, right. George Lucas was the creator. Not anymore, man. Disney bought it. And now there's 14 different TV shows and things I can't even, like, I don't even keep up with any of it anymore - it's too much.
Karen Foglesong:I found a Star Wars I guess it was an advertisement for Disney and I just went to check. There are three movies that I've never even heard of in that world. Like I've never - I missed them. I don't know how I missed them. And I've watched everyone up until a certain point. But I did feel like Rogue One was basically A New Hope with a chick. They didn't even - like they didn't really work hard, like the same major movements happen.
Erin Branham:Right? Well, and that's been one of the things that that was they were said about that is they just kind of kept doing that. In the major movies they just kind of kept doing the same things. But there had been for a long time, what was called the extended universe which happened in the books and which happened in - and not just that, most of these things have comic books. So my sort of point about it is that a mythology of this sort, and same thing happens even in things like monotheism, if you look at Christians, Christians a Christian is like, we all believe in the same guy. We all got the same book. And there are 450,000 different groups of us.
Karen Foglesong:Yes. My favorite is Baptist and Southern Baptists.
Erin Branham:Right. Exactly. So even though you have the really same set of source material, quickly splinters into this where you get multiple versions of things. Yeah, so right, the Southern Baptist Jesus is not the same thing as the Eastern Orthodox Jesus, they are not the same thing. Okay. They share a name, they share a little bit of iconography, but other than that they're deeply, deeply different or alternate versions that spin from - so that's kind of the thing that's interesting to me is the multiplicity of mythologies and and the way that modern storytelling has evolved back to this form, back to this way. You can trace this form, you can do it in ancient Greece, the Arthurian romances were created in exactly the same way. There was an old myth about a king named Arthur, and it had been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. And then a group of artists, a group of bards, in France, in around 1000, got a hold of these things and started exploring the stories of the Knights instead of telling the main story about Arthur, they were like, Well, hey, what's up with Lancelot and Gawain, and Gareth and -, this guy and that guy and all the people, and then we get the Holy Grail. And now we're telling all of a sudden, it proliferates. And the thing in those days was not to tell a new story. But to retell an old story, that's why there's like 14 - Yeah, there's like all these different versions of
Karen Foglesong:In a new way. the key characters of the Arthurian romances, because you're supposed to tell them over and over again, they are supposed to be, they're supposed to be multiple. And yeah, like, and it's funny, because I love that. And I have huge arguments within fandom about what's called canon, which I hate, because, because it's the idea that there should be one main storyline that we all agree is exactly the one, it's what's on the screen, and nothing else counts. And I'm gonna argue with you about whether or not that's canon, whether or not you're a real fan, because you don't like- no, there are 4000 versions of this. If you read all the comic books? Have you read all the books? Shut up then! that's a great example for how much it's like religion because we we can't agree from one paragraph to the next.
Erin Branham:Absolutely. So I have this my if you go to my if you go to my Twitter, e Kelly 1701. I'm a Trekkie. It's mostly about Star Trek. My, my pinned tweet is about Star Trek doesn't have a Canon, it has a mythos. And it argues this exact point that it shouldn't be one thing, it should be multiple things. And that is what makes it interesting. And that's what makes it strong. And that's what gives a lot of room in the fandom for people to find this their own meaning. And we're talking about all sorts of the forms and things and we're not talking about the symbols and what they mean. And this is the part that may sound completely fruity to some people, but I like I can tear up over some Star Trek. I can have deep moments of great awe and truly spiritual resonance from particular moments that are seen or to even think about kinds of lines that are just incredibly meaningful. There's a, there's a Vulcan philosophy that is called infinite diversity in infinite combinations. IDIC, I, literally, that is one of the like, tenants of my life, right? That that there is beauty and there is strength, and we will and and all of the diversity of the universe should be embraced. Right? It's Star Trek. So one of its main themes is difference is about difference, right? There's always an outsider, you're constantly dealing with aliens. And what do you find out over and over again, like for me, one of the most meaningful ones is a show called Devil in the Dark where there's this like horrifying rock monster that eats through rock and is eating like underground miners like turning them into just like smoking smears on the on the floor, and it's terrible, and everybody's terrified of it. And it just is the craziest looking shit you ever saw in your life, it looks like a weird pan pizza moving around. It's big and scary and all this stuff. And you eventually find out that she's a mother and they had been killing her eggs. They had broken into this chamber which had all these silicon balls, and they had smashed them up and thought - because they're like, they're useless. We can't sell them - because they're miners. And and so she was just fighting back. And even though she's crazy looking and they can't - Spock mind melds with her, of course.
Karen Foglesong:And so If I remember there's a whole scene about whether or not he's safe to mind meld with a silicon based organism, it's one of my favorites too.
Erin Branham:Exactly, of course, right? Is this gonna do, it's gonna be crazy Oh devil is Dark is highly meaning again. But it has to do with reaching across boundaries, it has to do with seeing beyond differences. It has to do with finding a way to communicate with understanding where the other side is coming from. Yeah, which was one of the core themes of Star Trek. And one of the reasons why it resonates deeply with me. And I have like this kind of relationship with it. So it's like you have you can go down into any of these, and we've talked about it, we may do some movies, or universes or something and do some sort of mythological breakdowns, because I could totally do many episodes on the breakdown of Star Trek. And all the different things that it means. But that's the big one, right? That's the big one is - see the other, reach for the other, understand, reach across differences is like one of the major major themes of it. And that gets to like said, you're exploring humanity, you're exploring the human condition, when you're getting into these stories. Are all of them great? No, but I'm sure in any other canon or, again, Canon, because that trip often refers to scripture in any, you know, set of works. They're the ones that are super powerful, and the ones that are less so yes, but anyway, so I've convinced you, Karen, that, that fandom can be, can be, not always, can be a living, vital mythology, or mythological system.
Karen Foglesong:I absolutely believe that. And especially because, I mean, just look at the very basics. These stories are based on the old story. We're not exact, you know, like Captain Picard or Captain Kirk is not Jesus necessarily. But he is an archetype that we're following through, it's just the way we we interpret that archetype again, right? So yes, I absolutely believe absolutely. And I know people that are Jedi-ists, I mean, it's religion based on the principles of the Jedis in Star Wars. Some of them are better than what we live by. Right?
Erin Branham:I'd ask you like, where do you think originally, these, you know, originally religions came from?
Karen Foglesong:Right.
Erin Branham:Right. They came from people telling stories, and telling stories that had some kind of truth to them.
Karen Foglesong:Like Luke Skywalker is Achilles, or Hercules, or, you know, just pick one.
Erin Branham:I actually wrote. You think I'm a nerd now? I actually wrote for an online Yeah, for an online - you've known me for a
Karen Foglesong:Now? long time. So you've seen me through some of these - I used to write for an online science fiction magazine that I can't even remember the name of if you want to know the truth. But I wrote a whole series of articles showing how Luke is actually Parsifal from the Arthurian stories and Darth Vader is The Fisher King. Ah, that's interesting.
Erin Branham:The wounded king who can neither sit nor stand nor lie, and Parsifal has to has to heal him.
Karen Foglesong:That's good, Erin.
Erin Branham:That's only if you count the original trilogy, because once you start getting into when he went to the prequels, he kind of changed the whole thing about Darth Vader, but it was very fun. Very nerdy, nerdy.
Karen Foglesong:Okay, well, there is a caveat here. The original story, or universe comes from someone trying to digest or rework symbols. When it becomes successful, and Disney buys it. It's about like, just get butts in seats, get butts in seats, right?
Erin Branham:Well, one of the things I was gonna say is that to show you again, people's really strong relationship to a lot of this material, look at the fight that's going on right now around the casting of roles in various deeply held fandoms that were presumed to be white and casting them with people of color, and how upset people are. I mean, look at Ariel, you know, my God, you would have I've never seen so many grown men cry as when they found out that Ariel was going to have dark skin. Mermaids are not supposed to -
Karen Foglesong:Really?
Erin Branham:You're frowning at me. What?
Karen Foglesong:Oh, I haven't heard this.
Erin Branham:Oh, people lost their minds.
Karen Foglesong:Well, I just watched Sandman by Neil Gaiman that, Gaiman, that came on.
Erin Branham:That was another one.
Karen Foglesong:I had a moment where I was like, Oh, who is that? That's the wrong? That's not who, but they got the character
Erin Branham:It doesn't look like the drawing.
Karen Foglesong:Yeah, it doesn't look like the drawing. But what I appreciated is that, even if they're shifting what the original concept of the character look like, the structure is there. You know, like, there were the woman that's playing the I don't know the I can't think of the character's name. The woman that's playing the helper to Sandman, the librarian in that world, she looks totally different than the way it was drawn in the graphic novel, which again,
Erin Branham:Lucien
Karen Foglesong:This is also a fandom thing that you turned me on to this segment. I have turned on lots of other people.
Erin Branham:Yeah, Sandman is just great piece of literature. It has it does have a fan base,
Karen Foglesong:It does have a fan base. And it works within archetypes because, you know, you have Dream and Death and Destiny and Despair and those kinds of things. And they're connected to other archetypes. Yeah, yeah, you I don't know that you needed to convince me I'm right with you. Did we convince you guys?
Erin Branham:Exactly. Did we convince you guys? You've also been reading the Masks of God. Right. And the whole fourth book is Creative Mythology where Campbell basically makes the same argument that in a time of religion dissolution, which we are seeing, to some degree at this point, yeah, artists kind
Karen Foglesong:Yeah. of take over and art kind of takes over for the space. Yeah,
Erin Branham:And that's what everybody's like, Oh, it's just that's religion has held until a new mythological structure settles in. Absolutely. But that's what I was gonna say about sort of, you know, diverse casting is partially because like you're saying, when Disney takes it over, and they just want to get butts in seats. Yes. They want to get butts in seats all around the world. wokeness driving this! Like, Nope. It's actually capitalism. Because you can't have an all white cast and sell that in Africa and Brazil and China and India, and people. Yeah, people aren't gonna line up for that crap. Let's like let's see a real let's see the world that's it's part of what I think is like breaking down some of these religions is globalization, becoming more of a single culture is challenging all these people who want to keep it singular. Yeah, right. We're saying no multiplicity and plurality is the way it seems to be headed. And they're like, no, no and God in America, that's the fight we're having in America? Are we going to be a plural diverse culture? Or are we going to be a homogenous Christian controlled culture?
Karen Foglesong:Oh, God, please. No. No. Like we've said earlier, like, okay, so, homogenous, Christian controlled culture, well which one? I don't know, it gives me hope that people are learning to connect with something greater than themselves for themselves. Because we've seen with the, with the book, Why God Won't Go Away, that our brains are wired to need something greater than ourselves to believe in, that's when we function the best. Does that thing need to be controlled by an outside source? Or can you make the relationship yourself?
Erin Branham:Absolutely, just what we're talking about and finding your thing. The other thing that's on my Twitter profile is like my Twitter profile, the first words are Taoist Pantheist Trekkie. And I would actually,
Karen Foglesong:that's great.
Erin Branham:And I think I think that is a valid description of my life philosophy and my religious belief,
Karen Foglesong:that's amazing that you can find the words even.
Erin Branham:Well, that's what makes it that's why we're here we're talking about this, or we're encouraging people to really think about what is meaningful, you didn't put those words together, no matter how silly they sound mashed up, and, and create your own mythology.
Karen Foglesong:Because remember this, I really want our whoever is listening to remember that all of the stories we know, every single one, no matter who is telling it, is made up by us. Nobody delivered them to us. Like their inspiration. If you have a connection to this greater source than yes, you can say that you interacted with that greater source. But they were not. They didn't come from some like Uberhuman, that was more perfect than us before us. Somebody made them up and hundreds of people have rearranged them and used them for political gain and you know, all kinds of stuff. So you're looking for your connection with some thing greater than yourself, if it works with what your parents gave you great. But if Captain Picard or Uhura or Luke Skywalker does it for you, more power to you! Yes. And suddenly we've talked about in a different episode was part of what we're losing in the cohesion of religion, a singular religion, is community. Well, the fandoms give you a huge community, a worldwide community.
Erin Branham:Very much so. And like I said, there's there are ritual spaces, they're called conventions. And there's one happening near you probably.
Karen Foglesong:Yes, there's one happening near you.
Erin Branham:Oh, my God, there's, there's such a thing but it is that is actually one of the things they think is special about and that as you say, comes together with that same idea of kind of a living mythology is, you do have to have some community, it really is important that the shared stories really work. And I, like I know if I see somebody anywhere in the world that has some kind of a symbol that lets me know that they're a Trekkie. I know that I can walk up to them and just say, live long and prosper. And we're gonna have an instant connection, we're gonna have instant communication, we're going to understand what that means. When we say that to each other, we'd understand how that is like, like literally walking up to a Star Trek fan and doing the Vulcan salute and saying Live Long and Prosper is like saying, you know, I see the God in you. You see the God in me. It is a ritual greeting of great meaning. And, and the fact that that's not shared by or that is poo pooed or that is not understood by the rest of the world. It's like, I mean, isn't that how every religious person feels? That doesn't bother me. Right? It more because it's so satisfying.
Karen Foglesong:It's a kind of drawing of fish in the sand.
Erin Branham:Absolutely, yes, it's what, find the symbol that means something to you. That means something, you know, that just that means something to me, and it's something that I can communicate with. So we hope you find that too. Thank you for joining us at Mythic U, we want to hear from you. Please visit our website at mythicu.buzzsprout.com That's MYTHIC u.buzzsprout.com. For more great information on choreographing your own spirituality, leave us a comment and donate if you have the means and the interest. If you'd like to support our work more regularly, please visit our Patreon and become a member of mythic you. Depending on the level at which you join members receive early access to new episodes, bonus episodes and free Mythic U gifts