The Needs of the Soul

The renowned mythologist Joseph Campbell described 4 functions of mythology - here we describe each function and flip them to examine how mythologies meet the needs of our souls. In conversation we consider how institutional mythologies such as organized religions may or may not still be successful in meeting our soul's needs and how choreographing our own spiritualities may do a better job.

Show Notes and Links
The Hero With A Thousand Faces - Joseph Campbell’s most famous work outlining the Monomyth/ Heroic Cycle
The Masks of God - Joseph Campbell’s 4-book examination of World Mythology
Dr. Fred Alan Wolf - American theoretical physicist specializing in quantum physics and the relationship between between physics and consciousness.
Why God Won’t Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief - researchers Andrew Newberg and Eugene d'Aquili offer an explanation that is at once profoundly simple and scientifically precise: The religious impulse is rooted in the biology of the brain. Newberg and d'Aquili document their pioneering explorations in the field of neurotheology, an emerging discipline dedicated to understanding the complex relationship between spirituality and the brain.
The Living Urn - Biopod cremation

We want to hear from you! Please rate and review us wherever you find this podcast. Join our Patreon: patreon.com/yourmythicu

Transcript

Erin Branham: 0:20

Hello and welcome back to Mythic U.

Karen Foglesong: 0:23

We're your host, Karen Fogelsong

Erin Branham: 0:25

and Erin Branham. This podcast is about learning to attend to your inner spiritual life

Karen Foglesong: 0:31

and finding meaning in a crazy world while trying to survive.

Erin Branham: 0:36

Today we're talking about the needs of the soul and how mythology leads us to them. If you joined us for our first episode, we talked about discovering mythology through the power of myths, a PBS special featuring Joseph Campbell, Karen, tell us about Joseph Campbell.

Karen Foglesong: 0:50

Campbell was a scholar who wrote a ton of books he taught at Sarah Lawrence College, try saying that really fast a few times - for 30 years or so. And he promoted an intellectual idea of, of his creation, the monomyth. The monomyth is a very modernist idea. Campbell was born in around 1904. And his most famous work on the monomyth, The Hero with 1000 Faces was published in 1949. So post modernism has long since deconstructed the concept in academic circles. But it remains wildly influential today, as a map of a heroic story used by authors, screenwriters, and producers everywhere. We'll explore the monomyth in other episodes. Today, we want to talk about one of Campbell's other key influential ideas, one that is held up as far as we know, but is a little bit less well known.

Erin Branham: 1:46

Right? So Campbell talk about what a living vital mythology was, this was the idea of, you know, a culture that was in tune with its mythology that the mythology was really functioning for them, it was it was taking care of all of the needs, and Campbell very much recognized that we are not in such a society. That's part of the reason why he was interested in this, that he talked a lot about the big religious ideas from around the world, and the ways that that affected different cultures. So he's talking about this living, vital mythology, which is great if you're academically studying comparative mythology. But we're trying to talk about life here. So what's really interesting, we realized, as we were looking at these functions of you can look at them as what a mythology does. Or you can look at it as this is what we need myths to do for us. So these are actually like they may be laid out in terms of these are the things they do but we're like, No, those are actually speaking to individual needs of the human soul. So this is what we talked about on Mythic U - how each of us can create a personal mythology or many that feeds the needs of our souls.

Karen Foglesong: 2:59

So we hope that you'll consider these ideas and stories and consider the ideas and stories in your life that meet these needs, or don't, and join as we look at stories that will.

Erin Branham: 3:12

So the first function is the mystical function - tell us about the mystical function.

Karen Foglesong: 3:18

This the mystical function of mythology is to evoke in the individual a sense of grateful affirmative awe before the monstrous mystery that is existence.

Erin Branham: 3:32

That's not heavy at all,

Karen Foglesong: 3:33

Not at all.

Erin Branham: 3:34

And I believe Campbell lays these out in The Masks of God series in Occidental Mythology, you can really tell that he was writing in the first part of the 20th century because like those books are called Occidental Mythology, by which he means Western, what we would call Western and Oriental Mythology, which we now call Eastern, right. So like it's laden in the fact that he comes from a kind of different time period, but we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's some good ideas here.

Karen Foglesong: 4:05

I mean, there are all kinds of people in our past that had brilliant ideas that have very awful, very not PC at all. Just to be polite about saying it, but you really can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you got to look. These are important ideas, and nobody before him, really allowed us the permission to explore the monomyth even if we can say it's not popular anymore. It still gives you an idea of the fact that we are sharing very important pieces like the mystical function.

Erin Branham: 4:42

Right? Absolutely. And so this gets into the fact that the universe is infinite, and we are finite. And that is scary. kind of terrifying.

Karen Foglesong: 4:56

edpb

Erin Branham: 4:59

yeah. Because I one of my favorite things to do that I find a very spiritual thing to do is to stand in the under the night sky and stare at the enormity of the universe and just feel really, really small. And and there's something that is beautiful and terrifying about that. And that's exactly what this is about. Right? So this is the mystical function he's like a good mythology is going to deal with your need to feel connected to that infinity.

Karen Foglesong: 5:28

That big scary infinity? How do you touch it? How do you look at God and not get burned?

Erin Branham: 5:36

And that's just it, it gets into the place at which human conceptions break down. Right, like this is the part where we're our brains are just too tiny to grasp. And almost every religion will make some, you know, notice of this right? Ultimately, yeah, in terms of Christianity is like God is everywhere, don't even try to understand it. The Trinity is there's God is three and one don't try to understand and it just is. And that is getting at this quality that like we need. We live within a mystery. And we need to be honest about that. And mediate that.

Karen Foglesong: 6:19

My favorite Sunday School teacher when I was a kid, told me that God's love was like a circle, and there's no beginning and no end. And that was, I was asking them why there were dinosaurs. And they weren't mentioned in the Bible. But that was a really great answer for a kid who was chewing on those big things, because that's the truth.

Erin Branham: 6:43

Yeah, exactly. That's good. It gets to that deep part of the universe itself. And if you look around at some of the other things, right, this is the whole idea of the Greek gods. And they said it in terms of the gods are immortal, and we are mortal. Therefore just don't even try to grasp it. Right. It's beyond you.

Karen Foglesong: 7:05

Like Taoism that can the the Tao that is not the Tao the thing that can be named is not the thing you can talk about?

Erin Branham: 7:13

I love you know, I'm a big Taosit. Taoism is one of my favorite ones. Because as I was grappling with this really hard when I was 15, I came across the Tao Te Ching. And yeah, and it's just like it the way that it speaks in the circles of just like, if you think you're getting this, you can't possibly be getting it because getting it is not getting it and we have to do this and the sage knows that to move the world you need to sit still as a stone and like, yeah, and it's all about paradox. And it's all about mystery. And it's all about the way that the true truth and infinity of the universe cannot be grasped and words cannot be grasped and image cannot be grasped. And you know, maybe for a split second, your your brain can get a little sliver, but that's about it.

Karen Foglesong: 7:56

Right?

Erin Branham: 7:57

Said we're so into the rational that I could see it being very specific to our culture, where that just makes us sort of uncomfortable, we like if we can't measure it, and put a number to it. That's just like, makes me nervous, you know? Yeah, I think that's a part of kind of the basic Western, dominant culture. And then there within that, of course, we have huge amounts of people searching for the mystical, you know, the occult, New Age in many ways. Yeah. Have you ever had an experience of the mystical? What's your experience?

Karen Foglesong: 8:30

Absolutely. Absolutely. repeatedly. I'm not gonna give an example right now we'll do that'll be some other episode i'll tell you about the screaming pterodactyl voice that came or you know,

Erin Branham: 8:42

ah, screaming pterodactyl voices, we hear it Mythic U bring you all kinds of interesting things, right. All right, tell us about the next one.

Karen Foglesong: 8:52

The cosmological function is the second of these functions like we're doing this is number two, right is, is to present an image of the cosmos, an image of the universe, roundabout that will maintain an elicit this experience of awe or to present an image of the cosmos that will maintain your sense of mystical awe and explain everything that you come into contact with in the universe around you. So how do you connect to the awe right?

Erin Branham: 9:22

This is the place where mythology and science touch each other. This is why we have a conflict in the West between religion and science because this one says our soul needs for our mythology to match our knowledge of nature. And what's been happening with all of our major religious traditions at least in the West.

Karen Foglesong: 9:45

Well I don't know I mean, like I there's a rocket went through space and we didn't find heaven yet. So

Erin Branham: 9:50

right nothing there. We have problems with the you know, the time frame right goes back to the flood. No, actually the earth is 4.5 billion years old. You know, all of these things are coming into contact. And when a certain and some people, you know, have the conflict and don't like Catholics are like, we're good with it. We're all fine with science, we're not going to insist upon the literality of the Bible. But when you do when you start saying no, this is saying the truth of the universe, you start running into conflicts over what you can actually see with your eyes. And we say like, there's a lot of people leaving religion, there's more nones than nones being not, not nones like Catholic nuns. Nones like not affiliated with a religion. Right?

Karen Foglesong: 10:36

What a strange cross up.

Erin Branham: 10:39

Um, so yeah, that that is is because that because their mythology is not feeding this need in their soul. Right, this is missing. This is one of the things that's missing, that's making them go - this isn't working for me because we need it. We need for it to make some sense.

Karen Foglesong: 10:56

Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something to it to that, like when I was a child that you like, it was a weird thing to like, show God's face or Satan's face on television, because we didn't know what they look like. And now there's so you know, there's Lucifer, there's, I mean, there's a whole slew of people that have played God. And, you know, like, it just, we're, we've reached a level of maturity in our exploration of imagery that also doesn't jive. You know? So how do you figure that out?

Erin Branham: 11:37

It's true, because there are, you know, that idea of how you can imagine put God into into a kind of reality. Right, that is definitely part of what is going on there. And if you look around at other mythological systems, like Hinduism, Hinduism actually does pretty well when it comes to the nature knowledge because Hinduism says that the universe is older than science says the universe is. Right? So it's very well just as a big enough mythological system. For those not familiar the base that you may have to help me on this Karen the basic sort of idea is that there the universe proceeds in ages the eh the universe is created and destroyed and created and destroyed and created and destroyed. Yes, basically an infinity of times, but there is still a base of infinite reality. Right, which is, is Vishnu who's you know, the world the universes are like coming out of his navel, I forget all the specifics.

Karen Foglesong: 12:35

Yeah, Brahma is born from Vishnu's navel and Brahma creates the world. And then Shiva destroys the world. And the cycle repeats

Erin Branham: 12:46

over and over and over.

Karen Foglesong: 12:47

You guys, Hinduism is just one of my favorite religions to have studied. I am not a Hindu. So like, you should look this information up for yourself too.

Erin Branham: 12:58

We do not definitely do not claim to be experts.

Karen Foglesong: 13:01

Right, no. Long searchers, right long time searchers,

Erin Branham: 13:07

exactly. Long searchers trying to find a way to meet the needs of our souls. When it comes to that, and this is where we talk about living in the god gap where we don't have Well, you said we have this problem that this is not exactly lining up on the cosmological function, except when you get into some of the quantum physics stuff, right? Yeah, there's there's some places where we're starting to see some things emerging. Like I'm a big fan of pantheism often describe myself as a pantheist. Because that's the idea that the universe itself is God that the Infinite is the infinite is the Divine is the infinite period, like a simple cosmology. I like it. Yeah, that has that has to do with that same idea, right? This

Karen Foglesong: 13:51

is that would be like Einstein's quote about us having Stardust in our blood in our veins or something like that. Right?

Erin Branham: 13:59

Oh, wait, that's yeah, that's the idea that, you know, yeah, everything in the universe is truly connected, which is true. We are at the earth. And we ourselves, the atoms that make up our bodies come from stars, the iron, carrying oxygen in your blood right now was forged in the heart of a star because that's the only place the iron comes from in the universe. That's it. That is where it is made. And if it did, like, that's the only explanation that possibly fits. But you know, you tell me that and I'm like, Oh, that is heavy.

Karen Foglesong: 14:34

Amazing.

Erin Branham: 14:36

I'm like, I don't really need any more God beyond that. You just told like, I'm done. That was plenty. What was that was plenty awesome. Going back to the first function, right? That's an awesome enough picture that matches science - takes care of the first need and the second need.

Karen Foglesong: 14:54

Yes, yes.

Erin Branham: 14:56

And that I think, too, is where people get into some of the quantum physics which goes to show that like when you get all the way down to the bottom of things, things dissolve into an kind of infinite sameness and substance that everything is made out of.

Karen Foglesong: 15:12

Yeah, I have this, Dr. Fred Alan Wolf quote here, and he's talking about how you can't have the universe without the mind entering into it. And the mind is actually shaping the very thing that is being perceived. And that's, you know, so if you're looking at these things, you're shaping them as you go. Right. And that's, I think that's kind of a pantheistic perspective. Like,

Erin Branham: 15:38

it definitely yeah, it gets into the, that concept of such complete inter connectedness, because even when I tell people like, Oh, I'm a pantheist. And like, yeah, don't get it. Like, well, the universe is God, they still, I think, in some ways, picture that as we are separate. You know, the universe is God, they're like, we're separate. Because humans have such a weird way. Again, humans in the West have such a weird idea of being separated from nature, and saying that things that humans do are unnatural. And, you know, that sort of thing. And, um, so it's hard to grasp the thing that pantheism really is, which is like, No, it's all one, like, the way I have come to describe it, and I'm not sure it actually gets it is the universe is God. And we are cells in the body of God.

Karen Foglesong: 16:26

Yes, I like that.

Erin Branham: 16:28

Yeah, that integrated.

Karen Foglesong: 16:31

Because and that also, that mirrors other systems in science, like rational systems, or other systems in our world that we have named with these rational explanations, that mirrors up and down, you know, and that to me, mean something that you can see that truth and other variations, applied in different ways.

Erin Branham: 16:57

Well, and a lot of what we're talking about here with the idea of thinking, mythologically, or thinking about stories has to do, ultimately, when you go all the way down even on the stories has to do with metaphor, right? It's like our brains, meaning comes to us frequently through metaphor, more even so then through the rational. So when we hit the right metaphor, we go,

Karen Foglesong: 17:20

those things,

Erin Branham: 17:22

oh yeah, right. Like it's satisfying.

Karen Foglesong: 17:24

yeah, yeah.

Erin Branham: 17:27

So that goes right to this, it's like, because a lot of this is sort of about being able to see the symbols that are around you to live in a world that is alive with meaning, right? And all of these different ways.

Karen Foglesong: 17:38

Yeah.

Erin Branham: 17:40

So your soul has a need to be in accord with nature. That's basically what this is. And I think this is when you put it that way. This is a really interesting thing. So how do you fulfill it? How do you bring your soul into accord with nature?

Karen Foglesong: 17:55

Right, and and however you define that, and I think that's something that you and I came to find in common is that there's so many systems out there, pick one. But if I wanted to really fit, you have to do the work yourself.

Erin Branham: 18:13

That's true. You can't, yeah, if you - when you were finding the stories that are meaningful to you, it requires work, you'll get that initial little.*gasp* That starts to make sense. But if you don't get in there and work with it, it will it will fly it won't settle into your soul and really start to grow there and function the way that you want it to.

Karen Foglesong: 18:33

Yeah.

Erin Branham: 18:34

All right. How about number three, Karen,

Karen Foglesong: 18:36

The sociological function is number three, Erin. Here's the game show host coming out *laughs* This is to validate and maintain a certain sociological system, a shared set of rights and wrongs. Uh oh. And properties are - proprieties or improprieties, on which your particular social unit depends for its existence.

Erin Branham: 19:04

So yeah, we're doing a bang up job on this one lately. Right.

Karen Foglesong: 19:07

Right.

Erin Branham: 19:07

*laughs* The Yeah, so your soul needs to feel in accord with your society. It needs to feel like you are. I know, particularly, it's just it's hard to do anything but laugh on this, but it's true, right? Humans are pack animals.

Karen Foglesong: 19:29

Yep. And even feeling like a rebel against your society is being in accord with a system. Right? That's, that's the really funny part for me. When I because I was always the rebel when I realized I was just a functioning part of a system. I was just being my own little cog. If *laughs*

Erin Branham: 19:48

it's, it's the matrix, right. The one was planned. It's all part of the order of the system

Karen Foglesong: 20:00

Don't get me going on conspiracies.

Erin Branham: 20:03

No, no. But there is that. Particularly in our society, we have a lot of room for rebels. We love rebels. Yeah, rebels are praised rebels are raised up, rebels are rewarded in many different ways,

Karen Foglesong: 20:16

and make a lot of money in capitalism.

Erin Branham: 20:18

Exactly. So we're very, because we're always want the new thing, right. We're constantly going back and forth, and whatever is the new thing, then you rebel against that, and you get the and then you rebel against that. And you can go on forever, which is, the plan. Definitely. But I think in terms of like, where we're talking about sort of where you're trying to meet the needs of your soul, you're thinking about spirituality, right? This is the problem with being a solitary believer that if you are out there trying to create your own mythology, choreograph your own spirituality, it's lonely.

Karen Foglesong: 20:51

You're in the woods with the machete.

Erin Branham: 20:55

That's right. What's the story again?

Karen Foglesong: 20:58

That's Jung, he says, If you can't, if you can follow the religion of your father, you should do so. Because that keeps you in your system. Right? It's easier to do that. If you can't, you're in the woods with the machete. Oh, and that's, you know, that's the truth of it, you have to forge your own path is what that means for those of you who have never used a machete right? You have to chop down some weeds, so you can walk, there's no, there's no trail cut for you. And that's true. And that can be scary. And things like, you know, customs that are serious, like, if you're in an Arab country, you do not want to offer your left hand to shake with somebody that that would be an insult, you know, and that's, that's the kind of shared system you have to adhere to. Like in America, we don't have a lot of, really, we have some holidays that we share. Most people say bless you, or excuse me, you know, but there's not, for the most part don't kill, right.

Erin Branham: 22:05

Let's hope mMore people pay attention to that one.

Karen Foglesong: 22:07

Right. But I think this is the biggest problem here is with trying to be inclusive of one another is that I have to allow for your belief system to sit right beside mine in a social unit instead of us be able to create cohesion, instead of having the same social system. You know?

Erin Branham: 22:34

Right. Well, that gets into like, one of the reasons we have a big problem with this right now in American society, certainly is because we have a huge debate over whether religion, whether these things that we're exactly talking about should be a public matter or a private matter. Right. I think we talked about that a little bit last time, that when, you know, part of what people who are say, like the Christian Right, who are trying to pass laws based on their theology, are looking for is this need, right? Part of what they're looking for is we want to go back to a time or it's generally a mythical time didn't actually happen. It's just a story. That once we were all in agreement about how this all worked. I love it when I hear American Christians say that. I'm like, do you know the history of American Christianity? Like do you know,

Karen Foglesong: 23:27

or just Christianity?

Erin Branham: 23:30

I know, but just the bare like this idea that somehow there was once this point where American Christians were like, all on the same page, like No, they weren't going to like, go into the like, I gotta leave and go make another colony because you people don't believe what I believe.

Karen Foglesong: 23:44

I grew up. I tell people, I grew up in the buckle of the Bible Belt. There were 13 different denominations in a town of like, 300 people, like,

Erin Branham: 23:56

crazy. So yeah, so should religion be public or private? And if it is not public, if it is a private thing, then what is the glue that holds us all together? What's feeding this need? Right? What is bringing this need? And so sometimes it is the, you know, the identity of your region, right? We're Southerners, although we've both left the South because we're Southern, but it's like it's a regional like you would I would certainly say at one point or another we're going to do a whole episode on the Lost Cause myth. And what that's all about because I know it firsthand, having been raised on it. So but it gives you a sense of identity, right? If your sense of identity I know - nationalism feeds into is feeds this need right. You know, I'm an American, I'm a proud American. I'm at this I'm like, I'm a proud Canadian, I'm a proud whatever, that also helps to feed this need. Yeah. What are some of the other ones that because you can have all these solutions for it now.

Karen Foglesong: 25:00

yeah, yeah, I'm a member of the chess team I'm I play role playing games, you know, they're not the same. Like when I think of them, I think d&d And it's like a board and a dice and stuff. But there's all these groups that meet online now that create

Erin Branham: 25:18

Oh, yeah, definitely like online communities. That's yeah, yeah, that's a good thing that you see all the time.

Karen Foglesong: 25:25

Fandom! Trekkies!

Erin Branham: 25:26

Fandoms - Trekkies, I was gonna say, I'm a huge Trekkie. I have had much community from that. And it interestingly, because we're talking about this, how do you have the things sit beside each other? One of the kind of core principles, or certainly something that is rolled around fandom a lot - is the Star Trek concept, infinite diversity in infinite combinations, which is the idea that we must not only tolerate each other's differences, but celebrate them. When there's a quote from Gene Roddenberry when humanity learns to celebrate its differences, and then we'll be somewhere. And, and so it really does, it gets into like, how do you create that community where everybody's allowed to be as different as they want to be? Yeah. Then where do you find the similarity? Right? Where do you find the universality in that that creates a community? And it's, it's interesting, I think this is something humanity is like really grappling with, at this moment in human history.

Karen Foglesong: 26:27

Well, I definitely because we're - our tribal, most of our tribal associations have been blown open. And I think that we've always associated as a tribal culture. So these have been little. This, this function has been on a very private or personal level, and now it has to blow up into this big worldview. And it's scarier.

Erin Branham: 26:51

It's a good point, you know, what are the studies that show like humans optimally have like 120 relationships. And like, that's how many you can kind of keep straight and maintain. And that happens to be the exact size of what a human band would have been in the earliest days of humanity. So like, there's, yeah, we're sort of wired to be in these relatively small groups, but also to do with identity, like, everybody's being able to define who they are, what they're about what they believe in, you know, that sense of having an identity is, I think that I think it's something that people are really grappling with these days, because we're seeing a lot of this stuff dissolve, right? Used to be able, you used to be able to say, I'm a Methodist. And you may not be able to do that these days. Now, it's, you have to have all these other ways to feed that need.

Karen Foglesong: 27:43

Or remember, when we were like, teenagers, and when you went to school, the next day, you hung out with the people that watch the same TV shows you did?

Erin Branham: 27:55

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Karen Foglesong: 27:59

The campfires are so tiny now it's crazy. Yeah. So that brings us to this idea, right? Are you getting your stories of belonging?

Erin Branham: 28:08

Right, where what are your stories of belonging? Where are they coming from? Is that this, and everybody does have them no matter what, right? The stories of your of your friends, the stories of your family, how you met your spouse or partner, the tale of where your family came from? Or how your parents grew up? Like how many of us will sit around and tell other people? Well, you know, my parents grew up in this certain circumstances. So I am this now.

Karen Foglesong: 28:31

Right?

Erin Branham: 28:34

We talked about that. What do we ask people? Where do you come from? Tell me the story of the belonging of your, right? We're always looking at that. So thinking about that -

Karen Foglesong: 28:43

all kinds of judgments attached to it, just, yeah. It's your reality. That brings us -

Erin Branham: 28:52

Yeah, the fourth and final function - the psychological function. This is the myth that must carry the myth must carry the individual through the stages of life, from birth through maturity, through senility to death, the mythology must do so in accordance with the social order of a group, the cosmos as understood, and the monstrous mystery. So here's where the psychological function, the need of you, for every human to have that story that brings them into harmony with those other three functions and make some sense out of the crazy changes that we go through as creatures. Right, when a human baby is born, it cannot move itself. You think that you go from this tiny creature that literally cannot move itself from the position that it's in it must be picked up and carried and fed and all these things. And you start in the state of total dependence. You age, you grow up, you become independent. You're able to act in the world and make changes in society and do all of these things and then eventually, you start to have some dissolution, some of your abilities start to dissolve. And then eventually you have to face mortality. And mythology is supposed to, right, the need, we have to understand what the hell is happening when you're going through all of this.

Karen Foglesong: 30:17

Right?

Erin Branham: 30:19

It's pretty intense. And mythology is supposed to, you're supposed to have a mythology or you ideally have a mythology that does help you deal with all of those changes.

Karen Foglesong: 30:31

Just a little bit, something that give you some faith, some sense of order, when there's a right answer, so that

Erin Branham: 30:37

you will I mean, you know, death is scary. And dissolution is scary. Aging is scary. All of these things are and especially again, in our culture, we have this youth worshipping culture in the West, because man, you say like, hell, you were saying health and capitalism don't go together? Guess what does go really well with capitalism? Fear of aging.

Karen Foglesong: 30:59

Right?

Erin Branham: 31:00

That is

Karen Foglesong: 31:00

Yeah.

Erin Branham: 31:01

Right? Capitalism found that and went *loud whoop* we go to the bank,

Karen Foglesong: 31:05

yes. Look at this, this will work this will work.

Erin Branham: 31:09

To stave this off, right?

Karen Foglesong: 31:14

I mean, you almost can't help it, you guys, we run towards independence, like, yeah, we can move, we can act, we can do whatever we want, we can change the world. And then you want to stop right there. That's where you want to stop, right? We all have that experience. But like in the Hindu culture, it's laid out for them. And of course, there's lots of we can, you know, rip apart any system and point out aspects of it that we feel are not fair, according to our own social code. But what what happens for Hindus within this context is that there's a time when they are given freedom of as a youth and then a time that you're expected to be contributing to society, not just having the freedom to do whatever you want, you're contributing to society. And then there's a time where you get to have introspection, because you're preparing to not be there anymore.

Erin Branham: 32:11

That's to say that is part of the mythological system that a Hindu grows up in and understands that this is part of it in the sense of, and that it does actually go beyond that right, then the sense is, and then you're going to be reincarnated. And you're gonna go through this again. And then there's another layer on top of that of, you know, this being reincarnated, not a good thing. Because, you know, the world is rough. So eventually, you want to get out of it. And you have this and that's exactly why we have you know, belief in the afterlife is a need our soul screams out, wait, I'm gonna disappear?!? I am not into that! So what can we do about this, people? So it starts working on that. That's why people who I've known people who grew up in the church, right, got grown up now, not in any of that stuff and let it go, they got older, and then all of a sudden found Jesus all over again, right? Or went just because you start to look death in the face, and you go, I want to have a relationship with that infinite mystery again, because- Yikes!

Karen Foglesong: 33:21

And, you know, just like Jung said it, the faith of your father is the quickest place to touch, or your mother as the case may be, but he's speaking in a patriarchal sense. So, you know, it's father oriented, but that's when that's when we grasp back to what we know, because we didn't spend any time doing any research or building for ourselves. So all we have to grasp is that system of our youth,

Erin Branham: 33:47

yeah, if you don't do the work yourself, that's what you have to fall back on.

Karen Foglesong: 33:51

So Maladoma Su Mei is from an African tribe, and his culture has a ceremony where a shaman speaks to the unborn child and, and ask them why, why this why the soul is coming here. And they have, again, very specific roles in their lifetime. And like grandparents hang out with the very young because they're the closest to the mystery, the soul place, right? So they have the most in common, and the adults work at growing the tribe and growing the crops and you know, all of those things. So there's all kinds of systems out there that are still functioning and part of the problem in America with our Native American cultures is that there, the tribal customs have been blown apart and other things injected in without any kind of shuffling and the cultures, the tribes that have been successful in kind of holding their tribal stories intact are more successful right now.

Erin Branham: 35:07

Well, it's because to have a a mythology that works for you torn away or to suddenly lose it or to have circumstances change so severely in the environment that a mythology falls apart is is, you know, absolutely wrenching it is its way, you know, it's what you see in the Ghost Dance right of the of the Native Americans who just simply had no hope left. And, and that's, you know, so you start making your peace with the infinite in one way or another trying to reaching for whatever you can reach for to make a difference in your world. It is it is absolutely true. That's why we talk about these needs. These like say these functions are actually needs and these needs are overwhelming and seem to be really built in to humanity. This is the, you know, this was where people who were like, Why God Won't Go Away and his name just dropped out of my head. Newberg? who writes about that, you know, talks about this is, yeah, this is why you find religion and every human culture throughout time around the world, right? This this is plainly our brains, our bodies, our understanding our souls, just the totality of it, are seeking for these very things, because you can see the way that people act out on them over and over and over again. So this is like, we have to end the pod on a on a pretty hefty note here. Are you comfortable with your image of death? Are you - have you made your peace? Have you really thought about - we.re going to be leaving you thinking about death today.

Karen Foglesong: 36:50

Well, okay, I was thinking about this. And I want to this is a joke, like a format thing that somebody gave me when I was a kid. They said to describe, you're stuck in a room like a 10 by 10 room. You can't get out, nobody can get in. What does it look like? And once you describe that room, then they say, Oh, well, that's how you think about death. So, like, are you? Are you making a comfortable place for yourself? Are you making a horrible place for yourself? Like, is there allowance for your life? Like your life circumstances? Is there an allowance for that within your idea of what happens in your afterlife?

Erin Branham: 37:37

Hmmm, that's a good point. Or can you like I am one of the folks who goes I'm very agnostic about death, I have no idea and I just like have to come to terms with that mystery. Right? That is a mystery. That is it. I will never know, there is no way to know. And I as a human being simply have to accept that. And you know, although I will say there is a pantheist I feel like- I'm lying. There is a comforting pantheist thought, which is the idea that you your body is recycled, right? The atoms and the energy that have been animating you go back into the universe itself and become one with everything, which I find very comforting thought I'm like, That works for me. I'm good, right? Yeah, I go I don't know what happens after death. Even the idea that my body will my atoms will be reused by you know, grass and flowers makes me happy.

Karen Foglesong: 38:29

It makes me very happy. It makes it actually it makes me sad that it's very rare in the United States to find a place where you do not have to be filled with some chemicals or something after you die. Because I want to be I would love to be planted the tree on top of my head. That the root of the tree just like use my I mean, I used everything in this on this planet. So if the planet can use me back That's right. See, look, I get all excited. Like Like,

Erin Branham: 39:02

there are more I'm seeing more of these not necessarily that you can be planted but there's definitely lots of cremation pods now. Where they you bury the cremation. You know, your cremated remains with seed.

Karen Foglesong: 39:15

a seed?

Erin Branham: 39:15

Yes. Yeah. With it with like a tree seed. Yeah. Oh, you can find those all over the place. Um, I've already told my family and like this one right here is what I want you to do. Yeah, it's a lovely, and I would rather have a tree for headstone than anything else.

Karen Foglesong: 39:31

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely!

Erin Branham: 39:35

I think that's very cool. Well, there you go. We'll leave you with trees for headstones and thinking about death, because - because that's what we do here. *laughs*

Karen Foglesong: 39:46

That's what we do here. Next time anyway, lighter. Really want to find

Erin Branham: 39:51

out a little more? Well, we will we do hope you will join us again on our next episode where we'll continue to talk about how we find those stories that can help meet the needs of our soul. Great talking to you, Karen.

Karen Foglesong: 40:05

Great talking to you. Y'all have a great day.